Two Letters from Pastor Tiner
#1. 28 January 2002: Your position would be very laughable if it were not so diabolical, and set on fire from the pits of HELL. You have been deceived by a demon from satans army. But the lust that is in your heart is the feeding grounds he was allowed to enter upon. Your only hope is to cry out th almighty to deliver you from the spirit of error, and ask him to give you a love for the truth. many are being deceived at this time as the time of the rapture to take place. What greater victory for satan than to deceive a believer ar the very last minute to be cast into everlasting fire. I am so sorry for you.
#2. 28 January 2002: These people and this trash cannot be defended from the bible or any other source. This was not found in the garden of eden before the fall. God created one woman for one man , and it did not change untill the deception ,sin came into the world, polygyamy, murder, sickness, wars, and all other woes which came out of hell. By the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ , creation was reconciled with God , and we have the power to resist all sin, even polygyamy, and christian patrichsiam. Men learn how to possess your own boddies and bring under subjection your lustfull spirits. From the true watchman of God for the last days.
My Rebuttal #1
My goodness, such emotion. But let us see if there is any scriptural validation for such a condemnatory attitude toward Christian Patriarchy to include Christian polygamous marriage. Let us not resort to emotional ranting, but let us examine what the truth of scripture actually is, and when we have explored the scriptural truths regarding marriage, we will explore the scriptural truths about slandering fellow Christians and denying the plain truth of Yahweh's word.
Initially, I would like to state that I care VERY little how you feel about polygamy or patriarchy. You have not offered a single verse of scripture to back up your specious claims that polygamy and patriarchy are demonic and I categorically demand scriptural justification for equating Godly marriage to murder, sickness, wars, and all other woes, as you describe it. Rather than rise to the emotional bait you have laid before me with your baseless accusations, I will lay out the scriptural truth for you and pray Yahweh that you have the spiritual integrity to see where you have been in error and repent of your refuting of Yahweh's word and slandering of His people. I will attempt to teach you, from a biblical standpoint, the spiritual jeopardy of such a stance. Let us begin with establishing a few basic truths.
The first thing I would like to establish, scripturally, for nothing else is valid, is the error of falsely accusing. Let us look at scripture and see what it has to say on the matter.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, 'Yahweh rebuke thee'.
Luke 3:14 And some soldiers were questioning Him, saying, 'And what about us, what shall we do?' And He said to them, 'Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages'.
To accuse a man or woman living in righteous Christian polygamy of sin is to falsely accuse of sin and to slander a brother or sister in Christ. There is NOWHERE in scripture where a man having more than one wife is sinful or wrong, nowhere. No matter how much you yell to the contrary, the plain truth of scripture is there is no declaration of sin based on whether or not a man has more than one wife. I challenge you to provide just one passage of scripture that backs up your emotional tirade against polygamy, but I know that you cannot for such a scripture just does not exist. Quite the contrary, there is a wealth of scripture showing Yahweh's blessing towards and regulation of plural marriage. There are even allegories in Jeremiah and Ezekiel that portray Yahweh as the polygamous husband to Israel and Judah, then Jerusalem and Samaria respectively. Does it stand to reason that Yahweh, a just, truthful and holy Elohim (God), would portray Himself in a relationship that He sees as sinful? If you believe this, please share your reasoning with me and I will send you the scriptures that plainly show that Elohim (God) is truth, righteousness and holiness.
You have equated righteous Christian polygamy with murder and wars and woes. Shall we see what scripture has to say about such untruthful slander? First of all, I challenge you to prove your statements with scripture. I am scripturally bound to do so as the following passage will illustrate.
1 Thessalonians 5:21-23 Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil, and the very Elohim (God) of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray Elohim (God) your whole spirit and body and soul be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Master Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ).
Acts 24:13 Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me.
Enough said. Prove it. If not, repent of the charge for the sake of your own spiritual safety. If you cannot prove an accusation through scripture then you must repent and withdraw it in order not to be guilty of repudiating the very word of Yahweh.
John 5:45-46 Do not think I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
Hmmmm...Moses will be your accuser...guess what. He was a polygamist. As were most of the patriarchs honored in scripture from the earliest times. Abraham, Jacob, David, and so on. Abraham was called righteous and Yahweh used him to found His people of Israel. David was called Yahweh's friend, and we find in 2 Samuel that not only did Yahweh give him his wives, but would have given him more if that were not enough. David's sin was in taking another man's wife in Bathsheba, not in having more than one wife.
Furthermore, you fail to take one more fact into account. The Saviour, Yah'shua (Jesus), portrays Himself allegorically as a polygamous husband in Revelation, where the Marriage Feast of the Lamb is described in such vivid detail. He is presented allegorically as the polygamous husband of His church. I say one more time, does it make sense that this would be so if polygamy were such a sinful thing?
As far as being deceived by demons, there are some scriptural truths that need to be pointed out in that regard as well. Let us explore scripturally just exactly what a doctrine of demons is. We will look to 1 Timothy for our enlightenment here,
1 Timothy 4:1-3 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who FORBID MARRIAGE and advocate abstaining from foods which Elohim (God) has created to be gratefully shared by those who believe and know the truth.
Interesting, let's analyze here. This passage describes a falling away from the faith through the hypocrisy of liars into doctrines of demons. These liars are described as having seared consciences and being led by deceitful spirits. And what is the first demonic doctrine pointed out here? You got it, the forbidding of Godly marriage. Now, as plural marriage can be thoroughly established throughout scripture to be sanctified and righteous before the Lord, then forbidding it or adjudging it a sin, in the plain light of scripture, is a doctrine of demons. All the emotion in the world does not change that. For a full scriptural exegesis, you can reference Królewiec Wives Messianic Polygamy Apologetics
The entire scriptural exegesis is laid out there but let us go over a few salient points. It is firmly established that Yahweh established marriage as a holy covenant binding for life, or for eternity, as some believe. Scripture shows marriage to be a lifelong covenant between a woman or women before Yahweh for the purpose of having lawful sexual relations for the purpose of propagation and companionship. Nowhere in the scripture are the words monogamy or polygamy used, just the word marriage. To the contrary, we find specific instructions in Leviticus and Exodus pertaining to the appropriate conduct of plural marriage, in fact, even find a couple of instances where it is mandated scripturally, as in the case of a Levirate marriage. We find numerous examples of righteous patriarchs who were polygamous. We find that Yahweh portrays Himself on several occasions as a polygamous husband. Lastly we find that any doctrine that denies someone the privilege of sanctified marriage to be a doctrine of demons. I think the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive. Polygamy is neither sinful nor perverse, but a blessed and sanctified marriage estate before Yahweh. If you think you have scriptural evidence to the contrary I will be most happy to consider it and help you explore the truth of Elohim's (God's) Word. I pray He open your eyes and help you to see past your emotional ties to false tradition and misinterpretation and lead you to the truth of scripture.
Email Exchange #2
Pastor Tiner's Response to my Rebuttal #1
(8 February 2002)
REGARDING YOUR LETTER TO ME
Dear Janet:
Greetings in Jesus name;
First let me apologize for my letter being offensive, or as you put it , " such emotion ". I failed to consider a lady might read it. I spoke with the frankness men sometimes use with each other. It would be so kind if you would indulge me for the next few moments.
It was interesting to find in reading your letter that the things I spoke of hit a nerve you may have thought did not exist, or was completley hid, or covered by a new philosophy of life. The fear and uncertainty that I decected is so well covered it would be very difficult to detect , even by a well qualified observer.
In your refuting my comments made to your husband about an article he wrote, It was very interesting to say the least, the way you were parroting anothers views. It was easy to see you were quoating somthing you had read and even may have much comitted to memory, But!! was not fully in agrement with deep in your inner self where no one is allowed to go. In fact you hold many deep secrets, thoughts and hurts you have covered so completley, only your inner spirit continues to greave. This is very serious as this often leads to a sever psychosis.
By your writung, I can tell you have very little self esteem, and a low self confidence problem which go hand in hand. You are not pleased with what you see looking back at you in the mirror, especially a full length mirror. You see many changes you would like to make. I see that as a child you had a better relationship with your mother, which had the same problem, than with your Father. Your mother taught you a more submissive, subservant roll, with the desire to please, than to assert yourself, to be more of a follower than a leader. You have spent this first part of your life wanting to please others and wanting others to like you.
One strong quality you have is the ability to cover up your feelings so well you deceive your self as well as others. You really! want to break out of this prison you are in and say to the world, HEY!! , This is who I'am , and I'am good!!. You want to excel
and for people to look up to you , you want to accomplish something in life that will set you apart . You want more of life than to share a home and children and a man with other women , ! And you can ! .
GEN 1;26,27,28
And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitfull , and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every thing that moveth upon the earth.
God wanted to make man in his image and his likeness. First of all God has all of the attributes of the male and the female withen himself. So when he created Adam , Eve was also created, the male and the female in one man Adam. ( Gen 5:2 ) and God called their name Adam. And see this , He said let them have dominion over fish, fowl, cattle, And over all the earth . So God created man in his own image , male and female created he them , in one man Adam . Repeating again , subue the earth with all that is in it .
So God formed man out of the dust of the ground , and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul . Both parts of man , his manly nature and his womanly nature came alive . ( you notice when God made Eve he did not need to breathe into her nostrils for her to live . ) After a period of time God said it is not good that the man should be alone, I will bring out of him that which will be a mate suitable for him . This will make him complete . She has been with him , in him , but he has not been able to see her , to touch her , or caress her . he purposely waited for a period of time to bring her forth , so Adam would feel the lonliness and the vaccum that would be completely filled and satisfied when he brought forth that which had been committed to and in his own body .
When the time was ripe, and Adam's desire was very intense, God caused a deep sleep to come upon him . While he slept God took one of his ribs , the womb , and all the womanly attributes , and made woman , and closed up the flesh thereof . Then God did a wonderful thing , ( who giveth this woman to be married to this man ? ) He brought her to the man Adam . I can see Adam as he gazed upon this the most beautiful of all God's creation , He was speechless . He wanted to yell to the top of his voice , Wow ! Wow ! . He thought within his heart , God you have made some wonderful and lovely things that was breathtaking to say the least , instantly he recalled looking upon the trees that seemed to reach the sky and gently moving in the wind painted as with a painters brush , with colors never seen with mortal eyes the sunset of a million evenings . Again he witnessed in his mind the waters of the Pison , the Ghion , the river Hiddekel , and the great Euphrates with it 's frosty white sprays as it tumbled toward the mighty ocean . The waters were blue and so crystal clear you could see the gold shimmering along the sandy bottom, as well as the bedellium and the onyx stone . He quickly thought again of the animals that passed before him , each with their mate , some so regal and royal , some so delicate and tender . He rembered his own desire for a mate . As he looked upon this woman , he said God , " surely you have saved the best for last . " he was suddenly brought back to the present as he noticed the woman's beautiful long hair moving slightly in the breeze . Her hair looked so soft that surely the clouds must blush in comparison . He saw she was smiling with a twinkle in her eyes as if she knew every thought that had just passed through his mind . ! Those eyes ! , looking into her eyes seemed as though you could see forever, they shine with the reflection of a million sunrises , yet with the tenderness of the countless stars he had watched on so many nights. His gaze moved down her body , Oh ! her body , it set ablaze a myriad of passions and desires he had never felt before . It caused his whole body to tingle , every nerve was on fire . He could not hide his excitement as he slowly made his way to her side , as he reache out to take her by the hand . It was so natural to gently pull her up tightly against him . The feelings that quickly enveloped his whole body and mind wher almost more than he could take . He suddenly found his lips urgently but ever so tenderly touching hers .
The woman's passions was equal or maybe surpassing that of the man, as ever fiber of her being was kindled for the first time. In this first embrace she knew she was his and he was hers . She felt safe, content , and greatly loved . The idea of sharing him and those wonderful feelings would never never happen because she was as much a part of him as he was of her . Together they were one and another would never be needed . As if reading her thoughts Adam said , you fulfill my every desire . You satisfy my every need , and I pledge to you and you alone all of my heart and my love forever more . For you are bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh , and you shall be called woman because you were taken out of man .
You see God did not to breathe the breath of life into Eve like he did Adam . The breath he breathed into Adam also quickened the life of the woman which was in him . This is the answer to the mistry of how two can become one flesh . They were one in the beginning . God parted them as he took Eve out of his side . He brought the two together again making one whole . Neither male nor female is complete without the other .
Both male and female were created on equal ground , neither above the other . Both were told to have dominion over all the earth ( Gensis 1:26 ) They were both told to replinish the earth , they were both told to subdue it .
God had wonderful plans for the man and the woman as he gave both the will power and desire to accomplish those plans. He did not esteem one above the other , but he gave each of them different job discriptions . The man being larger in frame with big bones and large muscles he placed as the head . He was to till the ground , lift heavy loads , and be the protector of the family. The woman being much smaller and very soft and tender having great compassion was to give birth and nurture children while making the home a wonderful place to be . But in all of these differences she was to have dominion with her husband . God called them both Adam . ( Gen. 5:2 )
After Adam and Eve had sinned by disobeying God's word they immediately died spiritually . Fellowship with God was broken they could no longer walk with him. Every good thing comes from God , So having lost fellowship with God they lost all of the godly attributes of God . The word tells us that God is love, so without God we do not know what love is, All the good went from man, and all the bad came in. Jesus said of the sinners of his day, " Ye are of your father the devil and the works of your father will you do.
It was because of sin, and after the fall that God said to the woman , " In sorrow shall you bring forth children, and your desire shall be unto thy husband and he shall rule over you ". This was not said to her while there was no sin in her life , only afterward. So when restoration and reconciliation came through Jesus Christ, the curse was removed from the woman as from man. Sin was delt with, and power to bring the ungodly appetites of the flesh under control, even polygyany.
Jealously came very quickly with the fall, anger and murder followed. Heartache , cheating, sickness, wars, worship of false gods, and sexual sins. All sins did not come at once, they came slowley as man moved futher away from the rememberance of a time when men walked with God. Multiple wives came after a long peorid of time. The seventh from Adam in the line of Cain, a man name Lamech was the first. (Gen. 4:19). Wives became nothing more than slaves in the home, to be sold traded or kicked out at the will of her husband. This was not the plan of God in the beginning. Man no longer had the love of God in his heart, and not being able to control the lust for sexual relationships with women , He began to take wives, concubines, handmadens, virgins, and even animals , and finaly other men. This is why God allowed moses to make laws to control humanitys relationship with humanity. To keep as much pease and justice as possable in a world where sin could not be delt without the sheding of innocent blood, his Son Jesus Christ. Gods hands were tied by his own righteousness, sin could only be pushed ahead year by year, but allowed to continue. So God did not create man to be a polygymist, nor did he condone it, He could only control sin by laws till Jesus the Mesiah came. After Mesiah, rules to regulate sin was done away with, and power to remove them and to live above them came into being, PRAISE GOD!! Now every man is to have his own wife, and every woman is to have her own husband. and to bring into subjection every sin by the power of the new birth. ( Eph. 4:17 to 24). This I say therefore and testify in the Lord , that ye henceforth walk not as other gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind , having their understanding darkened , alienated from the life of God through ignorance that is in them , because of the blindness of their hearts . Who being past feeling hath given themselves unto lasciviousness , to work all uncleanliness with greediness . But !! ye have not so learned Christ ; if so be that ye have heard him , and have been taught by him as the truth is in Jesus . That ye put off concerning the former conversations ( life style ) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lust . And that ye put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness .
What about the law ? The law is superceeded by faith Gal. 3:19 to 25 . Wherefore then serveth the law ? It was added because of transgressions ,till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . And it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one , But God is one,
Christ is the mediator of the new covenant . Is the law against the promises of God ? God forbid ; for if there had been a law given which could have given life , ( done away with sin ) verily righteousness should have been by the law . But !! the scripture hath concluded all under sin , that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe . But before faith came , we were kept under the law , shut up unto the faith which afterwards be revealed . Wherefore the law was our school master ; to bring us unto Christ , that we might be justifyied by faith .
(faith liberates from law ) But after that faith is come , we are no longer under a school master !!! . For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus . For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free , there is neither male nor female ; for you are all in Christ Jesus . And if ye be in Christ then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise . ( Read II Corinthians 3 : 1 through 17 ) All through the new testament , adultery , infidelity , fornication, lust , lasciviness , fleshly appetites , etc . . Rules for husbands and wives were given.
Paul was teaching in the seventh chapter of I Corinthians of such things . Nevertheless to avoid fornication ( adultery ) let every man have his own wife , and let every woman have her own husband . Now please do not bring up your un learned giberish about those words meaning singular in one instance and plural in another ; Paul was a scholar of his day having been instructed at the feet of Gamel , and became a member of the Sanhedrin , and taught according to the perfect manor of the law of the fathers . He was not ignorant of jewish religion , he had the best instructor in the jewish world . ( Acts 22: 5 ) To be a member of the Sanhedrin you must be able to quote the levitical law from memory . Paul would not be so foolish to take up precious time and make a fool of himself by saying let every man have his own wife , and every woman have her own husband , if polygyny were accepted by God , when if that were the case it would make no difference how long they abstained from sex by consent , he would not have to give that command to come together as soon as possible to avoid fornication , because there would be several other wives standing in line waiting her turn .How ridiculious can you get ? Polygymy is of satan, as part of his great hatred for God and his desire to destroy the family unit. God ordained leaving father and mother and cleaving to one wife and becoming one flesh . A husband and wife has secrets between themselves they share with no one else . Weeknesses, fears , hopes, plans, dreams , and intimacy. If another woman
(wife ) comes into the family there are those same intimacy between these two that cannot be shared . So the house ( home ) becomes divided , the more wives the more divisions . Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand . When a man takes a second wife it is a sin . He steals another man's half that is meant to make him complete . Children that were meant to be born of that man and woman who cannot now complete one another will never be born . Therefore polygymy becomes a crying sin like murder . God said in Gensis to Cain the cry of thy brother's blood comes to me from the ground . Murder is a crying sin because one life isn't all that is taken. The children and grand children are also murdered . His lintage all through generations are murdered . Homosexuality is a crying sin . God said to Abraham , the cry of Sodom has come up before me . As with polygymy and murder homosexuality destroys children , grand children and the lintage forever , murdering the innocent. They cannot produce offsprings . God said be fruitful , multiply and replenish the earth .
Respectfully (Pastor T) the true watchman
My Rebuttal #2
I would like to share a letter I received a few days ago and my thoughts on the ideas expressed in it. It is in answer to a rebuttal of an attack by this person perpetrated on my husband. This gentleman is of the persuasion that polygamy is of the devil and made no bones about stating exactly that. When I thouroughly rebutted his statements, using scriptural references and the truth of Yahweh's word, he wrote quite a long letter in reply which demands answering. In addition, I believe my sister-wife, Kasia, has some thoughts to share regarding these statements. Let us begin, shall we?
It was interesting to find in reading your letter that the things I spoke of hit a nerve you may have thought did not exist, or was completley hid, or covered by a new philosophy of life. The fear and uncertainty that I decected is so well covered it would be very difficult to detect , even by a well qualified observer
It is very interesting to hear that you are so certain of my fear and uncertainty. I will freely, and openly, I might add, admit to a small degree of uncertainty, as righteous Christian polygamy is mostly an unknown quantity in the west, and the west has made such hash of marriage in general which I think is a fact not even you can quite muster the panache to refute. I entered into plural marriage with some uncertainties, but with total faith that I was where the Lord has led me and would be blessed by Him just as I have been blessed by the gift of a devout family and a Godly man, all of whom love me greatly and encourage me daily to draw closer to the Lord and closer to the unity of spirit that we are to have as husbands and wives on the home front, and as brothers and sisters in Christ in the community of the Body of Christ. I feel that any fear you may have detected in my response may well have been your own when presented with scriptural truths for which no spiritually honest believer can refute. I am truly sorry for your fear and discomfort, but I cannot refrain from defending the truth of Yahweh's word based on the comfort level of someone who has devoted a lifetime to mistaken traditions, and false doctrines made by man. If you would care to take these traditions and doctrines to study, it would be my privilege to study with you to glean the truth of the Lord at such time as you have resolved your inclination to attack what you do not understand and cannot face. I will pray that you have the courage of your spiritual integrity to match the courage of your convictions.
In your refuting my comments made to your husband about an article he wrote, It was very interesting to say the least, the way you were parroting anothers views. It was easy to see you were quoating somthing you had read and even may have much comitted to memory, But!! was not fully in agrement with deep in your inner self where no one is allowed to go. In fact you hold many deep secrets, thoughts and hurts you have covered so completley, only your inner spirit continues to greave. This is very serious as this often leads to a sever psychosis
It is interesting to ponder how you have arrived at the studied opinion that I am solely parroting the views of another when the only words I wrote which were not mine were direct quotes from scripture. If that is your idea of parroting the views of others then I freely and without hesitation plead guilty. May I always parrot the Word of Yahweh throughout my life without apology. As for the deep secrets and hurts that you think I have covered so deeply, I do appreciate your compassion and concern but I have an advocate that released me from the pain of any such secrets and hurts two thousand years ago on a hill called Calvary so your condescending and patronizing pity is neither requested nor required, thank you.
By your writung, I can tell you have very little self esteem, and a low self confidence problem which go hand in hand. You are not pleased with what you see looking back at you in the mirror, especially a full length mirror. You see many changes you would like to make. I see that as a child you had a better relationship with your mother, which had the same problem, than with your Father. Your mother taught you a more submissive, subservant roll, with the desire to please, than to assert yourself, to be more of a follower than a leader. You have spent this first part of your life wanting to please others and wanting others to like you.
One strong quality you have is the ability to cover up your feelings so well you deceive your self as well as others. You really! want to break out of this prison you are in and say to the world, HEY!! , This is who I'am , and I'am good!!. You want to excel
and for people to look up to you , you want to accomplish something in life that will set you apart . You want more of life than to share a home and children and a man with other women , ! And you can ! .
I am not entirely sure what the purpose of these statements was, except to patronize and play on my emotions, but frankly, sir, I am little impressed by your ability to discern facts not in evidence. You claim I had a better relationship with my mother than with my father and that she was submissive and subservient. The truth is none of your business, but in the interest of attempting to help you see what spirit is directing your so-called discernment I will tell you a little of it. My mother was paranoid schizophrenic who would corner me in the back yard when I was a small child, and exorcise demons from me for hours, all the while calling me a whore and the devil seed and telling me how I was going to go to hell because God would not have me. Although my father was a harsh and brutal disciplinarian who thought nothing of beating me black and blue for any real or imagined breaking of the rules, I actually had a better relationship with him, for at least he was not psychotic. I don't think you could have missed this little discernment by any further if you had been trying. As to my ability to cover my feelings, I think this little missive is ample testimony as to the struggle I have at times with that as I am struggling mightily to maintain a Christian demeanor in my responses. You do not have a clue what I want in life, what I have been through in life, or what I have in life and I find it presumptuous in the extreme for you to make half-baked guesses regarding something you cannot begin to understand. Whatever spirit of discernment you are operating under, I promise you it is not the Holy Spirit. I will leave you to determine for yourself exactly what spirit it is.
One final comment about the above portion of your letter. I cannot imagine a greater blessing that Yahweh could have given me than to lead me to a family of sister-wives, children and a loving husband with whom to share my life on this earth in preparation for eternal life soon to come. I truly cannot understand why that thought threatens so many, but perhaps it is because they are so focused on carnal selfish nesses that they cannot see the spiritual blessings possible in such a life, and I truly doubt that one short letter will change that attitude in you but if you would like to discuss it I would be most happy to try to enlighten you.
And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitfull , and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every thing that moveth upon the earth.
God wanted to make man in his image and his likeness. First of all God has all of the attributes of the male and the female withen himself. So when he created Adam , Eve was also created, the male and the female in one man Adam. ( Gen 5:2 ) and God called their name Adam. And see this , He said let them have dominion over fish, fowl, cattle, And over all the earth . So God created man in his own image , male and female created he them , in one man Adam . Repeating again , subue the earth with all that is in it
Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:18 Then the Lord God said, It is not good for man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.
Genesis 2:20-24 The man gave names to all the cattle and the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a suitable helper for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man."
Now listen carefully and let us not go off on the one-flesh tangent just yet. I will deal with that in short order but first the whole point of the above scriptures it to point out that woman came from man, not to be co-ruler, but to be a helpmeet. This does not mean that women are less than men before the Lord, it simply means that they have different functions and duties. The gender roles are clearly outlined many places throughout scripture and the overlying theme everywhere is the headship of the man in the family. Nowhere in scripture do you see any indication that rulership of the earth is shared between men and women. Women as human beings have dominion over animals and beasts but not rulership. This is adequately established in scripture, and as a pastor I am sure you are aware of this.
As for the one-flesh argument that I am sure you are fixing to throw up as a smokescreen right about now, I enjoin you to remember how the Apostle Paul talks about not becoming one flesh with a harlot without taking into consideration whether or not the man is already married. It is obvious by context that one-flesh is solely a representation of a man and woman having sexual intercourse and becoming one flesh. As is demonstrated in the Pauline epistle, of course it is possible with more than one woman. We posit that it is righteously possible in the bonds of sanctified matrimony. Sir, I challenge you to find one verse of scripture in the entire bible that mentions the word monogamy or polygamy. I suggest that you cannot for there are no such verses. The bible talks about marriage, period, and defines it as the lifelong bond between a man and one or more women before Yahweh that allows them to experience sexual activity for the purpose of bonding closer and raising a family. There just isn't any distinction in scriptures between one or more wives. In fact, there are even laws in Exodus and Leviticus for the righteous conduct of polygamous marriage. More on that later for I am sure I will have to demonstrate to you scripturally how the Mosaic law is not inapplicable to modern people.
So God formed man out of the dust of the ground , and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul . Both parts of man , his manly nature and his womanly nature came alive . ( you notice when God made Eve he did not need to breathe into her nostrils for her to live . ) After a period of time God said it is not good that the man should be alone, I will bring out of him that which will be a mate suitable for him . This will make him complete . She has been with him , in him , but he has not been able to see her , to touch her , or caress her . he purposely waited for a period of time to bring her forth , so Adam would feel the lonliness and the vaccum that would be completely filled and satisfied when he brought forth that which had been committed to and in his own body .
When the time was ripe, and Adam's desire was very intense, God caused a deep sleep to come upon him . While he slept God took one of his ribs , the womb , and all the womanly attributes , and made woman , and closed up the flesh thereof . Then God did a wonderful thing , ( who giveth this woman to be married to this man ? ) He brought her to the man Adam . I can see Adam as he gazed upon this the most beautiful of all God's creation , He was speechless . He wanted to yell to the top of his voice , Wow ! Wow ! . He thought within his heart , God you have made some wonderful and lovely things that was breathtaking to say the least , instantly he recalled looking upon the trees that seemed to reach the sky and gently moving in the wind painted as with a painters brush , with colors never seen with mortal eyes the sunset of a million evenings . Again he witnessed in his mind the waters of the Pison , the Ghion , the river Hiddekel , and the great Euphrates with it 's frosty white sprays as it tumbled toward the mighty ocean . The waters were blue and so crystal clear you could see the gold shimmering along the sandy bottom, as well as the bedellium and the onyx stone . He quickly thought again of the animals that passed before him , each with their mate , some so regal and royal , some so delicate and tender . He rembered his own desire for a mate . As he looked upon this woman , he said God , " surely you have saved the best for last . " he was suddenly brought back to the present as he noticed the woman's beautiful long hair moving slightly in the breeze . Her hair looked so soft that surely the clouds must blush in comparison . He saw she was smiling with a twinkle in her eyes as if she knew every thought that had just passed through his mind . ! Those eyes ! , looking into her eyes seemed as though you could see forever, they shine with the reflection of a million sunrises , yet with the tenderness of the countless stars he had watched on so many nights. His gaze moved down her body , Oh ! her body , it set ablaze a myriad of passions and desires he had never felt before . It caused his whole body to tingle , every nerve was on fire . He could not hide his excitement as he slowly made his way to her side , as he reache out to take her by the hand . It was so natural to gently pull her up tightly against him . The feelings that quickly enveloped his whole body and mind wher almost more than he could take . He suddenly found his lips urgently but ever so tenderly touching hers .
The woman's passions was equal or maybe surpassing that of the man, as ever fiber of her being was kindled for the first time. In this first embrace she knew she was his and he was hers . She felt safe, content , and greatly loved . The idea of sharing him and those wonderful feelings would never never happen because she was as much a part of him as he was of her . Together they were one and another would never be needed . As if reading her thoughts Adam said , you fulfill my every desire . You satisfy my every need , and I pledge to you and you alone all of my heart and my love forever more . For you are bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh , and you shall be called woman because you were taken out of man .
You know, for the life of me, I am not sure where you got all of the above information, for I read the same passages and never did glean the semi pornographic information about Adam and Eve that you seem to have. Without questioning where your mind is regarding the relationship between them, I must question your motivation for such a thorough rewriting of scripture to include such pseudoromantic claptrap. I think this may be the most insulting section of your entire letter. Where exactly did you get the impression that because I was a woman I would somehow be influenced by such drivel. Let me explain something to you sir. Whist it is certainly true that women tend to be more emotional than men, and I have certainly been guilty of that, that does not mean that our brains have stopped working to the point that one may resort to such blatant emotional pandering to manipulate a thinking, intelligent woman into seeing a fallacious point of view, just because a little romance has been thrown in. How trite. You view polygamous women as demeaned yet you can use a specious bit of literature such as is present above to tout your monogamy-only stance. Let us do get real here.
You see God did not to breathe the breath of life into Eve like he did Adam . The breath he breathed into Adam also quickened the life of the woman which was in him . This is the answer to the mistry of how two can become one flesh . They were one in the beginning . God parted them as he took Eve out of his side . He brought the two together again making one whole . Neither male nor female is complete without the other
Agreed as far as you take it. Actually the mystery of how they become one flesh has been adequately explained above so let us move on.
( Gensis 1:26 ) They were both told to replinish the earth , they were both told to subdue it . Both male and female were created on equal ground , neither above the other . Both were told to have dominion over all the earth
Again, fallacious reasoning. Whilst men and women are equal in salvation, they are not equal in ability or responsibility. Such a modern, new age, feministic attitude has no substantiation biblically at all.
After Adam and Eve had sinned by disobeying God's word they immediately died spiritually . Fellowship with God was broken they could no longer walk with him. Every good thing comes from God , So having lost fellowship with God they lost all of the godly attributes of God . The word tells us that God is love, so without God we do not know what love is, All the good went from man, and all the bad came in. Jesus said of the sinners of his day, " Ye are of your father the devil and the works of your father will you do.
It was because of sin, and after the fall that God said to the woman , " In sorrow shall you bring forth children, and your desire shall be unto thy husband and he shall rule over you ". This was not said to her while there was no sin in her life , only afterward. So when restoration and reconciliation came through Jesus Christ, the curse was removed from the woman as from man. Sin was delt with, and power to bring the ungodly appetites of the flesh under control, even polygyany.
Let me see if I understand you correctly, sir. Are you saying that since Christ came and died on the cross, the scriptural injunction for wives to live in righteous submission to their husbands is done away with? I think the Apostle Paul would be astounded to hear that, as would Timothy, the Ephesians, and the Corinthians. Again, I think that shortly we shall have to deal with exactly what was done away with on the cross. Whilst the purpose of this rebuttal letter is not to attempt a complete scriptural exegesis in support of biblical polygamy, I will put a reference site here for you which will provide you with an accurate and scripturally rock-solid support for polygamy. I strongly urge you to study it sir, and pray over it, for as a pastor, I am sure you are highly aware of your responsibility to present the truth of Yahweh's word and the fact that you are in fact held to a higher accountability to do so than the average believer as you aspire to the office of pastor. There is no scripture reference at all that adjudges polygamy a sin, but if you believe I am in error, do feel free to send any references you have for refutation.
Here is the link that will provide you with all the scripture references you need to make an informed and spiritually honest judgment, then you will have to confront the need to repent for adjudging a Godly principle a sin in direct contradiction of God's holy word. You have charged sin, sir. I am sure, as a pastor, you are aware of your responsibility to substantiate that charge. Not emotionally, or by your gut reaction, but by scripture, and I am afraid I must demand that substantiation of you at this time. Either that or you must repent of making a false accusation against fellow believers to avoid placing yourself in spiritual jeopardy. You see sir, it matters not what you or I say about polygamy, it matters what Yahweh says, and we must divine the word of truth in this matter.
Jealously came very quickly with the fall, anger and murder followed. Heartache , cheating, sickness, wars, worship of false gods, and sexual sins. All sins did not come at once, they came slowley as man moved futher away from the rememberance of a time when men walked with God. Multiple wives came after a long peorid of time. The seventh from Adam in the line of Cain, a man name Lamech was the first. (Gen. 4:19). Wives became nothing more than slaves in the home, to be sold traded or kicked out at the will of her husband. This was not the plan of God in the beginning. Man no longer had the love of God in his heart, and not being able to control the lust for sexual relationships with women , He began to take wives, concubines, handmadens, virgins, and even animals , and finaly other men. This is why God allowed moses to make laws to control humanitys relationship with humanity. To keep as much pease and justice as possable in a world where sin could not be delt without the sheding of innocent blood, his Son Jesus Christ. Gods hands were tied by his own righteousness, sin could only be pushed ahead year by year, but allowed to continue. So God did not create man to be a polygymist, nor did he condone it, He could only control sin by laws till Jesus the Mesiah came. After Mesiah, rules to regulate sin was done away with, and power to remove them and to live above them came into being, PRAISE GOD!! Now every man is to have his own wife, and every woman is to have her own husband. and to bring into subjection every sin by the power of the new birth. ( Eph. 4:17 to 24). This I say therefore and testify in the Lord , that ye henceforth walk not as other gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind , having their understanding darkened , alienated from the life of God through ignorance that is in them , because of the blindness of their hearts . Who being past feeling hath given themselves unto lasciviousness , to work all uncleanliness with greediness . But !! ye have not so learned Christ ; if so be that ye have heard him , and have been taught by him as the truth is in Jesus . That ye put off concerning the former conversations ( life style ) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lust . And
You are presenting another tired old argument that for some reason no one can fathom; Elohim (God) tolerated something He did not approve of because of the culture of the times. I find that very hard to accept as a logical assessment of the nature of Elohim (God). My Bible tells me that Elohim (God) is truth, righteousness, and holiness, and also that He never wavers or changes. In view of these well-established principles does it make any sense at all that Yahweh-Elohim portrays Himself as the polygamous husband of Israel and Judah in Jeremiah and the polygamous husband of Samaria and Jerusalem in Ezekiel? If Elohim (God) is holiness, then it makes absolutely no sense at all that He would portray Himself in an unholy manner. Further, when King David is admonished for his adultery with Bathsheba and murder of Uriah in 2 Samuel, he is told that Yahweh gave him Saul's wives, and would have given him more if that were not enough. Since there is ample scriptural support that Yahweh gives His children only good gifts, does it make sense that He would give King David, whom He loved, a gift He viewed as flawed or sinful? Come now. In the interest of space I will not write out all the scriptural references but the following article I wrote will list them for you in detail.
What about the law ? The law is superceeded by faith Gal. 3:19 to 25 . Wherefore then serveth the law ? It was added because of transgressions ,till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . And it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one , But God is one, Christ is the mediator of the new covenant . Is the law against the promises of God ? God forbid ; for if there had been a law given which could have given life , ( done away with sin ) verily righteousness should have been by the law . But !! the scripture hath concluded all under sin , that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe . But before faith came , we were kept under the law , shut up unto the faith which afterwards be revealed . Wherefore the law was our school master ; to bring us unto Christ , that we might be justifyied by faith .
(faith liberates from law ) But after that faith is come , we are no longer under a school master !!! . For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus . For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free , there is neither male nor female ; for you are all in Christ Jesus . And if ye be in Christ then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise . ( Read II Corinthians 3 : 1 through 17 ) All through the new testament , adultery , infidelity , fornication, lust , lasciviness , fleshly appetites , etc . . Rules for husbands and wives were given
Well we are back to the argument about whether or not Christ came to do away with the Law. My contention is that He did not, He came to complete it and lift it to a higher plane and that is what the New Covenant is truly all about.
Matthew 5:17-20 Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah (Law) or the Nevi'im (Prophets). I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass until all of the Torah (Law) is fulfilled. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men to do so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven
I believe it is plainly stated here that Yah'shua (Jesus) did not come to do away with the Law, but to complete it. In fact, He takes it one step further and says that till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle shall pass. Add this to the fact that our Saviour was Torah-observant every day of His life, as were the Apostles and the early messianic community (church), and I would say that the argument that the Law has passed away is not scripturally valid at all. This is even more clearly elucidated on the links I gave you and well worth your perusal.
Paul was teaching in the seventh chapter of I Corinthians of such things . Nevertheless to avoid fornication ( adultery ) let every man have his own wife , and let every woman have her own husband . Now please do not bring up your un learned giberish about those words meaning singular in one instance and plural in another ; Paul was a scholar of his day having been instructed at the feet of Gamel , and became a member of the Sanhedrin , and taught according to the perfect manor of the law of the fathers . He was not ignorant of jewish religion , he had the best instructor in the jewish world . ( Acts 22: 5 ) To be a member of the Sanhedrin you must be able to quote the levitical law from memory . Paul would not be so foolish to take up precious time and make a fool of himself by saying let every man have his own wife , and every woman have her own husband , if polygyny were accepted by God , when if that were the case it would make no difference how long they abstained from sex by consent , he would not have to give that command to come together as soon as possible to avoid fornication , because there would be several other wives standing in line waiting her turn .How ridiculious can you get ? Polygymy is of satan, as part of his great hatred for God and his desire to destroy the family unit. God ordained leaving father and mother and cleaving to one wife and becoming one flesh . A husband and wife has secrets between themselves they share with no one else . Weeknesses, fears , hopes, plans, dreams , and intimacy. If another woman (wife ) comes into the family there are those same intimacy between these two that cannot be shared . So the house ( home ) becomes divided , the more wives the more divisions . Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand . When a man takes a second wife it is a sin . He steals another man's half that is meant to make him complete . Children that were meant to be born of that man and woman who cannot now complete one another will never be born . Therefore polygymy becomes a crying sin like murder . God said in Gensis to Cain the cry of thy brother's blood comes to me from the ground . Murder is a crying sin because one life isn't all that is taken. The children and grand children are also murdered . His lintage all through generations are murdered . Homosexuality is a crying sin . God said to Abraham , the cry of Sodom has come up before me . As with polygymy and murder homosexuality destroys children , grand children and the lintage forever , murdering the innocent. They cannot produce offsprings . God said be fruitful , multiply and replenish the earth .
I will not offer you any gibberish you would not understand as I am quite sure you are not educated in ancient Aramaic or Hebrew, not to mention Greek. What I will tell you is I do have my own husband, and my husband has his own wives. We are each a wife to him, and we believe that our marriage is one entity, just as the allegorical Bride of Christ is one entity with many members. That concept as well is much more developed with further study. But I am sure you are familiar with the description of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in Revelation. Again another allegory, this time with Christ as the allegorical polygamous husband. As to what can and cannot be shared between a husband and his wives, I can testify to the fact that we have such a unified bond of love and devotion to Yahweh between us that we share that bond mutually between all of us, to the benefit and great blessing of each. This is not a concept that someone who can only think carnally and selfishly can conceive of but is true nevertheless. Again you equate polygamy to homosexuality and murder and again I challenge you to substantiate that scripturally or repent for it is a most serious charge, and I categorically deny that you have any scriptural support for it.
Show me as well, where you got the information that polygamy destroys children. Our children are bright, active, secure, educated, and always in the care of someone we know we can trust to love and care for them without abuse. Again you know not what you speak of. In polygamous families we do not have abandoned, latch-key kids of parents whose careers are more important than children left to their own devices or in professional day care centers that might or might not employ pedophiles and child abusers and might or might not keep the children safe.
As for polygamy being demeaning to women, I posit a statistic I doubt you are aware of. In the United States, a monogamy-only country, 3 women an hour are murdered by their partners. I believe this is a direct result of the carnal, possessive, and selfish attitude of ownership that can result from enforced monogamy, whereas as a polygamous wife in a Godly family with a loving husband I have been encouraged to grow and expand my spiritual life and understanding of Yahweh and to persue my interests to the best of my ability. Far from being oppressed and subdued, I am free to be the woman Yahweh intended me to be from the beginning. I am truly sorry that your fear and stubborn clinging to false doctrine render you inable to see this but in no way does it change the truth. Should you desire further scriptural insight into this principle, you have the url's above and may feel free to contact me for further discussion, but please bring your bible and leave the condescension at home.
In His Love
In His Service
Świętosława Brzezinska Królewieca
Further Reading
[1] Kasia's Answer to Pastor Tiner
Author: SBK
