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The 12 Books of Abraham

    Kasia's Corner 16

    Kasia Answers
    Pastor Tiner

    Pastor Tiner

    Dear X: Greetings in Jesus name; First let me apologize for my letter being offensive, or as you put it , 'such emotion'. I failed to consider a lady might read it. I spoke with the frankness men sometimes use with each other. It would be so kind if you would indulge me for the next few moments.

    Do I detect a slight sarcasm here - that women are so fragile that they have to be protected from the 'male' way of expresssion? Is it commendable for men to be emotional and frank with each other yet not with members of the opposite gender? I think Yah'shua (Jesus) spoke with the same grace to all those who were teachable and He was harsh on all who were not, no matter what gender they had. All that matters is the position of responsibility and how great delusion a person is leading others into - not their personal attributes, be they gender, physical strength or others.

    It was interesting to find in reading your letter that the things I spoke of hit a nerve you may have thought did not exist, or was completley hid, or covered by a new philosophy of life. The fear and uncertainty that I decected is so well covered it would be very difficult to detect, even by a well qualified observer.

    You flatter yourself... You are quite mistaken of course - but you have chosen an efficient weapon by attacking a person's character because as I am sure you are aware it is difficult to disprove such a claim, whether it is true or not - all one can say is 'not true' and the other can say 'yes, it is' and there we are... So you have chosen to discredit a person by punching under the belt and going into a personal attack which is not an honorable way of addressing a subject.

    In your refuting my comments made to your husband about an article he wrote, It was very interesting to say the least, the way you were parroting anothers views.

    You may not be aware of it but all your arguments so far have all been applied before.. Your argument is not as unique as you may think. That doesn't mean that you don't believe in them and are a genuine advocate for them.. Please grant others the same ability to think rationally as you claim to have yourself.

    It was easy to see you were quoating somthing you had read and even may have much comitted to memory, But!! was not fully in agrement with deep in your inner self where no one is allowed to go. In fact you hold many deep secrets, thoughts and hurts you have covered so completley, only your inner spirit continues to grieve. This is very serious as this often leads to a sever psychosis.

    The shrink is out of the bag again, making wild guesses, yet pretending to be authoritative. Your comments are very demeaning and considering that you know very little about the person you are adressing you are very bold and very wrong in your assumptions.

    By your writing, I can tell you have very little self esteem, and a low self confidence problem which go hand in hand. You are not pleased with what you see looking back at you in the mirror, especially a full length mirror.

    She is a very lovely and pretty person and you don't have a clue about her self esteem.

    You see many changes you would like to make. I see that as a child you had a better relationship with your mother, which had the same problem, than with your Father. Your mother taught you a more submissive, subservant roll, with the desire to please, than to assert yourself, to be more of a follower than a leader. You have spent this first part of your life wanting to please others and wanting others to like you.

    I thought Elohim (God) said that we should serve one another - it was definitely not her mother who did. To be a leader you have to be able to be a follower. She is perfectly capable of both.

    One strong quality you have is the ability to cover up your feelings so well you deceive your self as well as others. You really! want to break out of this prison you are in and say to the world, HEY!! This is who I'am, and I'm good!! You want to excel and for people to look up to you, you want to accomplish something in life that will set you apart. You want more of life than to share a home and children and a man with other women! And you can!

    Having a home, children, a man and sister-wives is a wonderful part of life. After Yah'shua (Jesus) it is what makes the foundation on which to build on - don't say that your wife has divorced you and left your children in order to make a 'life' for herself and that you have abandoned them all too? What a poor life that would make - considering that we are created to be living in family units. I also think that your aproach to our purpose on this earth is rather secular - Elohim (God) doesn't want us to seek the admiration of others, all we are to concern ourselves with is to go about His business. I thought you would know that as a pastor...

    GEN 1;26,27,28 And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitfull , and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every thing that moveth upon the earth.

    I have never had an urge to argue with the Bible.

    God wanted to make man in his image and his likeness. First of all God has all of the attributes of the male and the female withen himself. So when he created Adam, Eve was also created, the male and the female in one man Adam. (Gen 5:2) and God called their name Adam. And see this, He said let them have dominion over fish, fowl, cattle, And over all the earth. So God created man in his own image, male and female created he them, in one man Adam. Repeating again, subue the earth with all that is in it .

    So God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. Both parts of man, his manly nature and his womanly nature came alive. ( you notice when God made Eve he did not need to breathe into her nostrils for her to live.)

    Your point? Is this supposed to argue against polygamy in some way?

    After a period of time God said it is not good that the man should be alone, I will bring out of him that which will be a mate suitable for him.

    From here on we see your personal additions and sentiments:

    This will make him complete. She has been with him, in him, but he has not been able to see her, to touch her, or caress her. He purposely waited for a period of time to bring her forth, so Adam would feel the lonliness and the vaccuum that would be completely filled and satisfied when he brought forth that which had been committed to and in his own body .

    When the time was ripe, and Adam's desire was very intense, God caused a deep sleep to come upon him. While he slept God took one of his ribs, the womb, and all the womanly attributes, and made woman, and closed up the flesh thereof. Then God did a wonderful thing, (who giveth this woman to be married to this man?) He brought her to the man Adam. I can see Adam as he gazed upon this the most beautiful of all God's creation, He was speechless. He wanted to yell to the top of his voice, Wow! Wow! He thought within his heart, God you have made some wonderful and lovely things that was breathtaking to say the least, instantly he recalled looking upon the trees that seemed to reach the sky and gently moving in the wind painted as with a painter's brush, with colors never seen with mortal eyes the sunset of a million evenings. Again he witnessed in his mind the waters of the Pison, the Ghion, the river Hiddekel, and the great Euphrates with it's frosty white sprays as it tumbled toward the mighty ocean. The waters were blue and so crystal clear you could see the gold shimmering along the sandy bottom, as well as the bedellium and the onyx stone. He quickly thought again of the animals that passed before him, each with their mate, some so regal and royal, some so delicate and tender. He rembered his own desire for a mate. As he looked upon this woman, he said God, "surely you have saved the best for last." he was suddenly brought back to the present as he noticed the woman's beautiful long hair moving slightly in the breeze. Her hair looked so soft that surely the clouds must blush in comparison. He saw she was smiling with a twinkle in her eyes as if she knew every thought that had just passed through his mind! Those eyes! looking into her eyes seemed as though you could see forever, they shine with the reflection of a million sunrises, yet with the tenderness of the countless stars he had watched on so many nights. His gaze moved down her body, Oh! her body, it set ablaze a myriad of passions and desires he had never felt before. It caused his whole body to tingle, every nerve was on fire. He could not hide his excitement as he slowly made his way to her side, as he reache out to take her by the hand. It was so natural to gently pull her up tightly against him. The feelings that quickly enveloped his whole body and mind wher almost more than he could take. He suddenly found his lips urgently but ever so tenderly touching hers.

    I suppose this may have been so - yet more likely not exactly as your vivid imagination has portrayed it. Again you seem to believe that you have the capability of reading other people's minds - what you usually read is your own perception of others. Even if you by a very long strech would be right about your enormous assumption, I still don't see your point. If you think our husband is without emotions for us, and that she is missing what you describe about Adam or that this will attract her away from her family, you are sorely mistaken.

    The woman's passions was equal or maybe surpassing that of the man, as ever fiber of her being was kindled for the first time. In this first embrace she knew she was his and he was hers. She felt safe, content, and greatly loved. The idea of sharing him and those wonderful feelings would never never happen because she was as much a part of him as he was of her. Together they were one and another would never be needed. As if reading her thoughts Adam said, you fulfill my every desire. You satisfy my every need, and I pledge to you and you alone all of my heart and my love forever more. For you are bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, and you shall be called woman because you were taken out of man .

    Again you are adding a great deal to what the Bible says. You must have a very low opinion of her or women in general to think that a semi-pornographic epistle of our first parents will sway her beliefs about Christian polygamy. I have hardly ever encountered anyone so demeaning to polygamously married women as you come out by saying in not-too-well-covered-up terms that we have no brains and are manipulated by emotions only - such an assumption is gross and ghastly. You also show even more clearly that you have no clue about what Cristian polygamy actually is - no wife is deprived of being cherished by her husband. We are all his completion, each and everyone of us.

    Perhaps before you go making further statements based on either delusion or a vivid imagination it would be wise to actually get to know what and who you are dealing with as it might save you from appearing foolish.

    You see God did not to breathe the breath of life into Eve like he did Adam. The breath he breathed into Adam also quickened the life of the woman which was in him. This is the answer to the mistry of how two can become one flesh. They were one in the beginning. God parted them as he took Eve out of his side . He brought the two together again making one whole . Neither male nor female is complete without the other.

    Agreed. It sound like if you don't believe that she has been introduced to the mystery of marriage - yet she has told you in no uncertain terms that she is a married woman.

    Both male and female were created on equal ground, neither above the other. Both were told to have dominion over all the earth (Gensis 1:26) They were both told to replinish the earth, they were both told to subdue it.

    Just one second. Did you notice who named Eve? Think about it...

    God had wonderful plans for the man and the woman as he gave both the will power and desire to accomplish those plans. He did not esteem one above the other, but he gave each of them different job discriptions. The man being larger in frame with big bones and large muscles he placed as the head. He was to till the ground, lift heavy loads, and be the protector of the family. The woman being much smaller and very soft and tender having great compassion was to give birth and nurture children while making the home a wonderful place to be.

    You have just asked her to step away from that calling in order to "break out of this prison you are in and say to the world, HEY!! This is who I'm, and I'm good!! You want to excel and for people to look up to you, you want to accomplish something in life that will set you apart. You want more of life than to share a home and children and a man with other women, And you can!" - make sure you don't speak with a forked tongue please.

    But in all of these differences she was to have dominion with her husband. God called them both Adam. (Gen. 5:2)

    When Eve was in Adam - he had the dominion over his body - when she was taken out she became an entity called Eve by Adam. She was part of him and when they were in agrement she ruled with him as they were still one in mind and intent. She was never meant to divert from the Lord's will neither Adam's as their wills were all one.

    After Adam and Eve had sinned by disobeying God's word they immediately died spiritually. Fellowship with God was broken they could no longer walk with him. Every good thing comes from God, So having lost fellowship with God they lost all of the godly attributes of God. The word tells us that God is love, so without God we do not know what love is, All the good went from man, and all the bad came in. Jesus said of the sinners of his day, "Ye are of your father the devil and the works of your father will you do.

    Yes, true.

    It was because of sin, and after the fall that God said to the woman, "In sorrow shall you bring forth children, and your desire shall be unto thy husband and he shall rule over you". This was not said to her while there was no sin in her life, only afterward. So when restoration and reconciliation came through Jesus Christ, the curse was removed from the woman as from man. Sin was delt with, and power to bring the ungodly appetites of the flesh under control, even polygyany.

    Except from your adding the last two words I agree - you say that polygamy is the lust of the flesh - what a great error. I don't think you really mean that people shouldn't marry anymore because it involves sex? Sex or marriage itself is not a sin - it is ungodly lust that ruins people.

    Jealously came very quickly with the fall, anger and murder followed. Heartache, cheating, sickness, wars, worship of false gods, and sexual sins. All sins did not come at once, they came slowley as man moved futher away from the rememberance of a time when men walked with God. Multiple wives came after a long peorid of time. The seventh from Adam in the line of Cain, a man name Lamech was the first. (Gen.4:19). Wives became nothing more than slaves in the home, to be sold traded or kicked out at the will of her husband. This was not the plan of God in the beginning. Man no longer had the love of God in his heart, and not being able to control the lust for sexual relationships with women, He began to take wives, concubines, handmadens, virgins, and even animals, and finaly other men.

    Although you say some truths you mix it with wrong assumptions here. Adam and Eve never got married - does that mean that marriage is wrong? If marriage came to pass at a time after the fall does that make it wrong? Marrying one or more women has never been faulted by Yahweh - He has however spoken up against carnal lusts, being with animals, siblings other men and taking other men's wife/wives, but marriage has never been banned and you are in danger of calling white black here - be warned.

    This is why God allowed moses to make laws to control humanity's relationship with humanity.

    Moses didn't make the laws - Yahweh did.

    To keep as much pease and justice as possable in a world where sin could not be delt without the sheding of innocent blood, his Son Jesus Christ. God's hands were tied by his own righteousness,

    You are trying to indicate that God was careful not to address what was right and wrong, because the people couldn't live it - that is completely wrong - do you think He cared so little for the women as to not protect them in His law? God stated very clearly what was right and what was wrong, in fact we are being showed more grace when we repent in the New Covenant than in the Old. Don't go twisting scripture to fit your own personal agenda.

    sin could only be pushed ahead year by year, but allowed to continue. So God did not create man to be a polygymist, nor did he condone it,

    As a matter of fact He did - He wanted to give David more wives if he had wanted it. I belive that was because David was a godly man and thus a blessing to his wives.

    He could only control sin by laws till Jesus the Mesiah came.

    Then why isn't there a law against polygamy? In fact there is a law concerning how to live it - there is no such law on living homosexually as homosexuality is illegal in the first place.

    After Messiah, rules to regulate sin was done away with, and power to remove them and to live above them came into being, PRAISE GOD!!

    Chapter and verse please... In fact Paul said that he had a thorn in his side that made him do what he hated - we are not perfect yet or else you would not have misjudged her so badly and wouldn't have such a flawed view of our marriage, but praise Yahweh He has now shown us the way to be perfected and sanctified through Yah'shua (Jesus) - yet like the clay we have to be willing to be formed by His hands (even when it is painful and long cherished beliefs) in order to become a beautiful and useful vase to His purpose.

    Now every man is to have his own wife, and every woman is to have her own husband, and to bring into subjection every sin by the power of the new birth. (Eph.4:17 to 24).

    I have my own husband and I wouldn't swap him for anyone because I have been made his and he mine in Yahweh, thus my husband has me and I have him and I have no intention of breaking my covenant to him and I know that he won't break his to me. In the same manner Yah'shua (Jesus) is my own Saviour and I am his own allegorical bride - that doesn't stop you from being the same and having Him as your own Saviour - does it?

    This I say therefore and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, having their understanding darkened, alienated from the life of God through ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their hearts. Who being past feeling hath given themselves unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanliness with greediness. But!! ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him , and have been taught by him as the truth is in Jesus. That ye put off concerning the former conversations (life style) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lust. And that ye put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness .

    Amen - I can't see any rightous purpose of quoting this scripture at her though. It seems like if you are trying to indicate that her marriage is based on corruption and deceitful lust, but I strongly advice you to think again. Be sure to judge righteous judgement and I can catagorically state that in this instance your judgement is poor to say the least and evil at its utter extreme.

    What about the law? The law is superceeded by faith Gal.3:19 to 25. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made. And it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, But God is one.

    Please make your mind up - is there a law that has to be followed or not - if not then nothing is wrong or sinful; if 'yes' let's operate from what Yahweh has to say and not what we think He should say.

    Christ is the mediator of the new covenant. Is the law against the promises of God? God forbid; for if there had been a law given which could have given life, (done away with sin) verily righteousness should have been by the law. But !! the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our school master; to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justifyied by faith. (faith liberates from law) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a school master!!! For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all in Christ Jesus. And if ye be in Christ then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

    Funny that the heirs of the promise stem from a polygamist...

    (Read II Corinthians 3:1 through 17) All through the new testament, adultery, infidelity, fornication, lust, lasciviness, fleshly appetites, etc

    Again you are defining white as black and condemning people of sins they do not have the remotest intent of or are commiting. It is in the same category as if I accused you of being a homosexual at heart - Please don't judge when your sight is muddled it won't benefit anyone and bring damage to yourself and whoever swallows your camel.

    . . Rules for husbands and wives were given. Paul was teaching in the seventh chapter of I Corinthians of such things. Nevertheless to avoid fornication (adultery) let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband

    This is the seccond time you have mentioned that one reference..

    Now please do not bring up your unlearned giberish about those words meaning singular in one instance and plural in another; Paul was a scholar of his day having been instructed at the feet of Gamel [sic], and became a member of the Sanhedrin, and taught according to the perfect manor of the law of the fathers. He was not ignorant of jewish religion, he had the best instructor in the jewish world. (Acts 22:5) To be a member of the Sanhedrin you must be able to quote the levitical law from memory. Paul would not be so foolish to take up precious time and make a fool of himself by saying let every man have his own wife, and every woman have her own husband, if polygyny were accepted by God ,

    Paul wasn't refering to polygamy at all. He was saying don't be whores and whoremongers - stick to your own - don't go lusting after other people's mates. He was right.

    when if that were the case it would make no difference how long they abstained from sex by consent, he would not have to give that command to come together as soon as possible to avoid fornication, because there would be several other wives standing in line waiting her turn .

    You fail to take into consideration that when a man consents to abstain - he abstains no matter how many wives he has.

    How ridiculious can you get? Polygymy is of satan, as part of his great hatred for God and his desire to destroy the family unit.

    Be careful here - you have set out to destroy our family, if that were possible.

    God ordained leaving father and mother and cleaving to one wife and becoming one flesh. A husband and wife has secrets between themselves they share with no one else. Weeknesses, fears, hopes, plans, dreams, and intimacy. If another woman (wife ) comes into the family there are those same intimacy between these two that cannot be shared. So the house (home) becomes divided, the more wives the more divisions.

    You talk as though you think you know what polygamous marriage is - but you are proving that you don't - I don't feel called upon to have you study my private life but I will say that this family is strongly united and that polygamy has only added to that unity - not ever divided it!

    Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand.

    Well here is your proof - ours is standing and will continue to do so.

    When a man takes a second wife it is a sin. He steals another man's half that is meant to make him complete .

    In that case God was helping David to steal wives.

    Children that were meant to be born of that man and woman who cannot now complete one another will never be born. Therefore polygymy becomes a crying sin like murder. God said in Gensis to Cain the cry of thy brother's blood comes to me from the ground. Murder is a crying sin because one life isn't all that is taken. The children and grand children are also murdered. His lintage all through generations are murdered .

    Your reasoning is based on a false assumption and therefore not valid - actually you are the one who is denying my husband his children by the wives Yahweh has given him, and thus you are trying to not let his offspring get into existence, so who's advocating murder?

    Homosexuality is a crying sin. God said to Abraham, the cry of Sodom has come up before me.

    Indeed - why didn't Yahweh use that opportunity to chastise Abraham for living polygamously?

    As with polygymy and murder homosexuality destroys children, grand children and the lintage forever, murdering the innocent. They cannot produce offsprings. God said be fruitful, multiply and replenish the earth.

    Polygamists heed that commandment - homosexuals don't, God hates homosexuality. God said that he was married to Israel and Judah - He has never claimed to be married to a man - God forbid, because Yahweh hates sin, and protects polygamy.

    Respectfully (Pastor T) the true watchman

    I hope you will be able to take off those distorted glasses that are tainted by the wordly culture that hates godly marriage, be it monogamous or polygamous. I believe you agree that this world has nothing but contempt for the teachings of our Elohim (God) when it comes to what exactly we people should be doing here as greed and selfishness is dominant and people follow whatever itches their ears. So please try to see past what we have been taught by such people and really open up to what the Bible actually teaches without having to add a lot of your own intents into it, then we will be able to unite in the Holy Sprit and not go defending unrighteous pet doctrines like God only allowing men to have one wife.

    In Christ


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