Shalom, Timothy, I am not quite sure what you are after here as a discussion on the Catholic Creeds alone is the subject of an enormous discussion in itself and should probably be conducted in a separate thread on another group. And I am not clear why a discussion of any creed should have a bearing on the authenticity of the Book of Enoch - it's simply a matter of comparing biblical doctrines with the BoE. What distinguishes the Apostles Creed (AC) from all the others (Nicean, Athanasian, etc.) is that it does not go beyond Scripture whereas the others are extrapolations rooted in neoPlatonist philosophical assumptions. We use the AC here purely because it is a collation of Scriptures and thus does no violation to the Sola Scriptura rule which we also follow. Our foundation, more accurately, is the Protestant Canon, with the AC being a summary of some key doctrinal points that sift our various gnostic and other heresies. Accordingly I think it would be more profitable to compare the Book of Enoch passages and doctrines with what the OT and NT themselves teach directly.

Do I take it you are defending the Book of Enoch and wish to do so on the basis of the Catholic Creeds? If so I think we would be arguing at cross-purposes because of different sets of assumptions.

Blessings!

Actually, there's some evidence that the Nicene Creed is based off of Jewish ideas. :)

I think people get the idea that its Neo-Platonist due to the language used. But a careful reading of Paul shows he himself even uses Neo-Platonic-type language to share what is already evident from the Hebrew Scriptures.

If its no big deal, I'll start my own Nicene's Creed discussion under Trinity or Theology. I'm not going to say the "Nicene Creed" is necessary for salvation, but neither do I disagree with it either, based on how I understand it.

Yes I am going to defend the book of Enoch as a book that imparts a message of Faith, Love and Works, which is the fullness of The WORD. All we are, and all we will be as a disciple of Christ depends entirely on the Spoken WORD. We exercise Faith that All is as recorded. The Apostles Creed, which is a foundational stone of the Messianic Evangelical belief, was not mentioned by Paul, not in any of the passages of the NT (although some of the passges of the NT are contained in the AC), and not even The prophets spoke about in the OT. At least Enoch is mentioned in the OT. On a rumor that The Twelve Apostles contributed to its creation, it is accepted by entire organizations world wide or should I say wordly accepted. Many scholars dispute that it was written by the Apostles at all. It is said that the first mention of the creed is dated 200 years after Christ's physical departure. Why then do we put such Faith in the document? Because it has the ring of Truth. It does not hinder The True Seeker of The Way from uniting with Christ. So no problem with me. The Book Of Enoch should be given the same consideration. Does the book move the reader toward enlightenment and salvation under the shadow of the Cross? Does the Book follow the Laws as stated by Christ Himself? Those are questions I feel the debate should answer. Does the group feel another set of judgements should be used to review the intent of the Book?
Tim

Timothy,

You've a exhumed a fascinating and yet theologically unpopular topic that needs to be heard! There are several reasons the Book of Enoch isn't given enough consideration or credit, and that is simply due to the lack of evidence that Yahoshua and his apostles revered or accepted the book since we all know they preached solely from the Torah & Tanakh. Secondly, the book contradicts what is written within the Bible. God forgives the Fallen Angels in The Book of Enoch after they beseech him, if I remember correctly -- even Satan (Azazel) himself. This contradicts the teaching that Satan and his angels did fallen and for all time mind you, and were then thrown into the chains in Hell for all Eternity.

Now, whether you realize it or not -- one of Satan's other names is Azazel and this the name by which he is mentioned in the Book of Enoch. You may give the argument that these were two separate occasions when God's angels fell: the first, when the Angels of the Lord looked upon the human women and favored them, and the second, when St. Michael and his angels fought and The Dragon and his angels fought also, and finally Satan was defeated. Now if we are positive [which we should be] that Azazel is Satan then that gives us our third and final reason why the Book of Enoch should remain Apocryphal, it is very confusing! One book says Satan is forgiven, and the other says he and his angels are cast into Hell.

In conclusion, I am reluctant to deem it a false book because I've read it and although it seems to contradict the Bible, it only does so if we are without a doubt certain that there has been but one single occasion that the angels have fallen onto the earth instead of two or more occasions; the Bible does not contradict such a possibility. The reason being for it's unpopularity in my opinion, is the book's primary focus: Fallen Angels. It even goes so far as to give their exact names and specialties in the Arts and Sciences. I believe the book is divinely inspired and that Enoch existed, in my heart I feel it is true, but since Christ never spoke of the book and neither did his Apostles, how can we, as Messianic Christians vouch for something that is foreign to our New Testament and Religion?

I have created a separate Group in which to discuss Creeds - please go to:

Christian & MLT Creeds

Hello Group,
Michael establishes some very interesting points about the book of Enoch. There does seem to be a contradiction about the fallen angels and the forgiveness of those and satan by YHWY. I Am sure YHWY has the capibilties to unite the forestated contradiction. I Am not advocating that the book of Encoh be added to the Bible as a part of the canon. I Am just, in my humble pleadings, asking for the book to be given the consideration that it deserves. To address the question Michael rasied about YHWY forgiving the fallen angels. Let us consider the fact that Christ chose twelve disciples and one of those twelve being of the nature of a fallen angel. Christ knew of Judas' nature and chose him anyway. Why? Well, many breath has passed man's lips on this subject. I believe that Christ chose Judas to show the true followers of The Way the power of Love. We are to Love all for All is the essense of YHWY. Did Christ forgive Judas? To be choosen as a disciple of Christ under those circumstances implies forgiveness, for Christ knew the outcome. Was he (Judas)reinstated to his former position in Christ, not in this life (that we know of), but possibly in another. So, If we examine the book by asking does the concept of YHWY forgiving satan break any of the commandments Christ spoke to his disciples, I would aruge no. In fact it supports the commandment of forgiveness. How manys times are we to forgive Christ was asked, seventy times seven was His reply. If we expect forgiveness then we must have a forgiving heart. Would not YHWY forgiving satan be an example of such Forgiveness and LOVE. Let The Lord WORK out those seemingly contradictions. His Thoughts are not our thoughts. I would think that satan's reinstatement to his former glory hinges on the ability of satan to ask for forgiveness. YHWY's forgiveness is Universal. I forgive my friends who have slighted me in some manner. Some are not reinstated to their former postion because they chose not to be, not because I rejected them. Can one forgive and reject? Back to the book of Enoch. Angela implied/stated that the book didn't meet the Gematria standard of langauge, so therefore it must remain hidden from canonical Scripture. It may be that the Book should remain hidden, for a treasure to be safe from the theives of world must be concealed, but not for the reason of numerical coding. Blessing of Faith, Love and Works for these are the fullness of the WORD. Tim

The question isn't about whether Yahweh has or will forgive satan, the true question is, has satan repented? I know what the book of Revelation says. We are servants of the Most High, and we cannot make Him in our own image. Are we to forgive? Absolutely, yet how can we forgive someone who has not repented? We can hold no grudge, but we cannot be in right standing or relationship with that person until they repent and apologize.



Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Group,
Michael establishes some very interesting points about the book of Enoch. There does seem to be a contradiction about the fallen angels and the forgiveness of those and satan by YHWY. I Am sure YHWY has the capibilties to unite the forestated contradiction. I Am not advocating that the book of Encoh be added to the Bible as a part of the canon. I Am just, in my humble pleadings, asking for the book to be given the consideration that it deserves. To address the question Michael rasied about YHWY forgiving the fallen angels. Let us consider the fact that Christ chose twelve disciples and one of those twelve being of the nature of a fallen angel. Christ knew of Judas' nature and chose him anyway. Why? Well, many breath has passed man's lips on this subject. I believe that Christ chose Judas to show the true followers of The Way the power of Love. We are to Love all for All is the essense of YHWY. Did Christ forgive Judas? To be choosen as a disciple of Christ under those circumstances implies forgiveness, for Christ knew the outcome. Was he (Judas)reinstated to his former position in Christ, not in this life (that we know of), but possibly in another. So, If we examine the book by asking does the concept of YHWY forgiving satan break any of the commandments Christ spoke to his disciples, I would aruge no. In fact it supports the commandment of forgiveness. How manys times are we to forgive Christ was asked, seventy times seven was His reply. If we expect forgiveness then we must have a forgiving heart. Would not YHWY forgiving satan be an example of such Forgiveness and LOVE. Let The Lord WORK out those seemingly contradictions. His Thoughts are not our thoughts. I would think that satan's reinstatement to his former glory hinges on the ability of satan to ask for forgiveness. YHWY's forgiveness is Universal. I forgive my friends who have slighted me in some manner. Some are not reinstated to their former postion because they chose not to be, not because I rejected them. Can one forgive and reject? Back to the book of Enoch. Angela implied/stated that the book didn't meet the Gematria standard of langauge, so therefore it must remain hidden from canonical Scripture. It may be that the Book should remain hidden, for a treasure to be safe from the theives of world must be concealed, but not for the reason of numerical coding. Blessing of Faith, Love and Works for these are the fullness of the WORD. Tim

I think there are many big asusmptions in this thinking, brother. Over the years I have met many who believed that not only will Yahweh forgive Satan and the demons but that we should too - I have been greatly disturbed about the direction they were headed in.

Lucifer and the other angels were created with the full knowledge of Yahweh's existence. They lived with Yahweh and saw Him in His full glory. Because of that, their rejection was final, and they could never be forgiven. Satan has not changed his ways because he hates Yahweh for His damnation. He was the most beautiful of Yahweh's creations, but because of his pride, he is forever lost. The only thing he can do is take as many humans with him as possible. Man can reject Yahweh, and based on new learning can come back to Him. We believe on faith, and for that we are only judged at the point of death. We are better than the angels. We are the called-to-be-bride of Yah'shua and will be made one with Him. The angels will only be angels.

Satan is the son of perdition, he is the only entity that has already been sentenced to perish. Although those that followed him in his rebellion are reserved for that fate, they have yet to be sentenced. If the Father commutes his sentence, it would be a violation of His word. "I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a 'terror'- (a representative of the dreadful event [the second death]), and never [shalt] thou [be] any more." (Isa.28:28,19).

Satan didn't merely rebel against Yahweh. He desired....still desires... to be as great as, or greater than Yahweh! Thus he will not humble himself to repent - indeed he has to be forced to bow the knee and admit that Yah'shua is Messiah - this is no act of repentance on his behalf. The Bible indicates he knows what his fate is to be, but in spite of that, he continues his evil work to prevent any heartfelt worship of Yahweh by humanity.

There is no forgiveness without repentance and there is not an iota of evidence that satan ever did or will repent. Not all want to be forgiven, moreover.

Satan can not be saved! Yah'shua died so that the sins of man could be forgiven, and that we might become sons and daughters of Elohim. He didn't die so that the fallen sons of Yahweh who chose to fall for sexual immorality with the daughters of men could come back into the kingdom of Yahweh that they desired to overthrow! They gave up perfection for lust and every kind of evil. Yah'shua is teaching us how to walk in the grace that the angels fell from! Why would anyone even want to consider letting Satan back into Heaven? He hasn't changed his ways for 6,000 years! Read Job 41:1-34 Satan is completely evil! All satan will ever do is pretend to be your friend and then kill you.

Satan and his demons have ALREADY been judged! He has blasphemed the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) for which Scripture says there is NO FORGIVENESS. If there is no forgiveness for one category of man, then there cannot be forgiveness for the one who has sinned above all others. Scripture proves that not all will be forgiven - so why try and defend Satan and the demons? Forgive me for being blunt (I mean it as no personal affront) but this does sound like a question of defending an indefensible doctrine for the sake of defending a pet apocryphal book. To me this idea that Satan will be forgiven (and by implication, saved) is perhaps the most damning inditement of the Book of Enoch. Such a doctrine will lead all sorts of souls into damnable liberal thinking.

See, What is a Liberal Christian? at http://www.nccg.org/FAQ121-Liberal.html







Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Group,
Michael establishes some very interesting points about the book of Enoch. There does seem to be a contradiction about the fallen angels and the forgiveness of those and satan by YHWY. I Am sure YHWY has the capibilties to unite the forestated contradiction. I Am not advocating that the book of Encoh be added to the Bible as a part of the canon. I Am just, in my humble pleadings, asking for the book to be given the consideration that it deserves. To address the question Michael rasied about YHWY forgiving the fallen angels. Let us consider the fact that Christ chose twelve disciples and one of those twelve being of the nature of a fallen angel. Christ knew of Judas' nature and chose him anyway. Why? Well, many breath has passed man's lips on this subject. I believe that Christ chose Judas to show the true followers of The Way the power of Love. We are to Love all for All is the essense of YHWY. Did Christ forgive Judas? To be choosen as a disciple of Christ under those circumstances implies forgiveness, for Christ knew the outcome. Was he (Judas)reinstated to his former position in Christ, not in this life (that we know of), but possibly in another. So, If we examine the book by asking does the concept of YHWY forgiving satan break any of the commandments Christ spoke to his disciples, I would aruge no. In fact it supports the commandment of forgiveness. How manys times are we to forgive Christ was asked, seventy times seven was His reply. If we expect forgiveness then we must have a forgiving heart. Would not YHWY forgiving satan be an example of such Forgiveness and LOVE. Let The Lord WORK out those seemingly contradictions. His Thoughts are not our thoughts. I would think that satan's reinstatement to his former glory hinges on the ability of satan to ask for forgiveness. YHWY's forgiveness is Universal. I forgive my friends who have slighted me in some manner. Some are not reinstated to their former postion because they chose not to be, not because I rejected them. Can one forgive and reject? Back to the book of Enoch. Angela implied/stated that the book didn't meet the Gematria standard of langauge, so therefore it must remain hidden from canonical Scripture. It may be that the Book should remain hidden, for a treasure to be safe from the theives of world must be concealed, but not for the reason of numerical coding. Blessing of Faith, Love and Works for these are the fullness of the WORD. Tim

Supplement to my last post:

1. Forgiveness is one of the benefits of the death of Messiah on the Cross, which is available only to those who believe in Messiah.
2. Satan does not have a part in the redemptive work of Grace, which is meant for Adam and his fallen brethren, and not for angels, whether faithful or fallen (I Peter 1:12B)
3. Satan has not repented and never will.
4. Although Yahweh is forgiving, He is also righteous in judgement; and finally
5. Satan has already been judged at the cross of calvary,(John 16:11)

Because Satan has narcissistic pride, and refuses to repent, there is absolutely no forgiveness to any one who refuses to get right with the Yahweh.

I hope this is the right place to post this:

I am commenting on the wording of the Creed itself.
The specific instances I'm referring to are:
The translation ofthe word Rabbi as "Lord", in relation to Yahushua -- perhaps Teacher (or some more formal way to say teacher I can't think of right now) would be a good translation.
It has a different ring to it than Lord or master, which has an implication of domination to it, which I feel is different to the type of domination that is expressed by "King" for example.

I would say we have been ransomed from being dominated, and instead parts of the kingdom or even heirs to the kingdom - and the word "Father" implies that you are the son.
Lord, we should remember, is a word very prominently used to describe Baal as well - please forgive me if that last one sounded like an incitation of controvery, but it should be remembered the words of the prophet Jeremiah / Yirmiyahu:

Jeremiah 23:26-27

"Till when is it in the heart of the prophets? The prophets of falsehood, Yea, prophets of the deceit of their heart,
Who are devising to cause My people To forget My name by their dreams, That they recount each to his neighbour, As their fathers forgot My Name (YHWH) for Baal (The Lord)"
(YLT)

I think we can both agree to dismiss the replacing of the Name with "Adonai" - but I'm concerned that certain words like Baal are "forbidden", by their implication, and not by just the fact that they have been applied to heathen gods - El and Melech (thought to be what "Moloch" was actually called) were used to false idols as well as for YHWH.
However, calling YHWH for Baal would seem totally preposterous to the ancient prophets, and to most modern people as well.
Could the original ban or stigma of this word been because of the meaning or some implication of the word itself?



Secondarily --

Did he rise ON THE THIRD, or after three days and nights?
Yahushua himself references Jonah who, if the Scripture in both instances is correctly translated, was also three days and nights in the belly of the sea-beast:

Matt. 12:40
"for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."

Brother lev,
I have no arugment with any of the Scripture that you quoted. How fitting that you quote Job. Is it not written in Job, that YHWY The Lord, was chatting with satan and asking him to consider Job. So YHWY has no problem chatting with satan. I don't advise that we do so. I have no problem with satan because he has no power over me and I will not hold any hate in my heart for him persay, I do hate sin and understand that at this point in my life the devil can not make me do anything I do not want. My sin is on me. Just as Job knew it was up to him to curse the Lord and no one else, no matter the afflection, so he chose not to curse The Lord. The Lord once said through His prophet, that the world would be destoryed, but here we are, because The Lord can keep His WORD and destroy yet restore what He destoryed just as He restored Job. I would not doubt that The Lord can keep His WORD related to the Destruction and Damnation of satan the fallen angels yet restore them if it is HIS intention and you can not trap Him with His WORDS, which is what it seems you are trying to when you stated that The LORD would be a liar if He did restore satan, many have tried and many have failed to trap The LORD with His WORDS. What I do find more dangerous than believing The Lord can not destory and restore at His Will, is a closed minded approach to the power of LOVE. I too would like to be blunt with without being considered offensive, for we are brothers and sisters seeking The Way and The True Peace of our Lord and Saviour. When I read your post I felt no LOVE, just anger. I feel that anger is a dangerous emotion that can become embedded in one's very fiber, eating away at one's Spirit, much like a cancer, and in so, such anger could become a work of satan and lose the righteousness it (the anger) was intended. I again state what design or measurement are we to use to judge the book Enoch against, if it is not the intent of the commandments. Blessings of FAITH, LOVE, and WORKS for These are The Fullness of The WORD, Tim

" When I read your post I felt no LOVE, just anger." ??

Timothy L. Cottle said:

Brother lev,
I have no arugment with any of the Scripture that you quoted. How fitting that you quote Job. Is it not written in Job, that YHWY The Lord, was chatting with satan and asking him to consider Job. So YHWY has no problem chatting with satan. I don't advise that we do so. I have no problem with satan because he has no power over me and I will not hold any hate in my heart for him persay, I do hate sin and understand that at this point in my life the devil can not make me do anything I do not want. My sin is on me. Just as Job knew it was up to him to curse the Lord and no one else, no matter the afflection, so he chose not to curse The Lord. The Lord once said through His prophet, that the world would be destoryed, but here we are, because The Lord can keep His WORD and destroy yet restore what He destoryed just as He restored Job. I would not doubt that The Lord can keep His WORD related to the Destruction and Damnation of satan the fallen angels yet restore them if it is HIS intention and you can not trap Him with His WORDS, which is what it seems you are trying to when you stated that The LORD would be a liar if He did restore satan, many have tried and many have failed to trap The LORD with His WORDS. What I do find more dangerous than believing The Lord can not destory and restore at His Will, is a closed minded approach to the power of LOVE. I too would like to be blunt with without being considered offensive, for we are brothers and sisters seeking The Way and The True Peace of our Lord and Saviour. When I read your post I felt no LOVE, just anger. I feel that anger is a dangerous emotion that can become embedded in one's very fiber, eating away at one's Spirit, much like a cancer, and in so, such anger could become a work of satan and lose the righteousness it (the anger) was intended. I again state what design or measurement are we to use to judge the book Enoch against, if it is not the intent of the commandments. Blessings of FAITH, LOVE, and WORKS for These are The Fullness of The WORD, Tim