Peace,
As I re-read my answer to Lev. I think anger may not be the right word to express what I felt from Lev as I read his post. I just felt an emptiness or lack of Spiritual Joy. I felt as if I was reading the thoughts of a legalistic Jew more than a Brother in Christ. I am not in any way trying to be argumentive or attacking Lev on a personal level. I am just trying to express what I felt when I read Lev's response. Lev please explain yourself again as it relates to GRACE, LOVE, FORGIVENESS. I do honor you for all the time and effort you expend spreading the Gospel. Peace, Tim

I don't think the issue is whether or not Satan WILL or CAN'T be saved, rather, I think the issue is this: Why does it matter?

Should we start ministering to demons if Satan is going to be saved? Wouldn't that violate the command against necromancy (Leviticus 20:27)?

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law (Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV).

I can see Satan easily using sympathy for him as a means to draw us from Yahweh. Especially since Revelation 20:10 says he will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, the second death. I think its merciful enough Yahweh is annihilating him out of existence.

This Scripture is enough for me:

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 9 ESV).

Just don't make make judgments about demons and you should be fine. Only Yahweh judges.

Well, brother, it just goes to show that feelings are unreliable ;) We also need to be careful of this word 'legalist' which is commonly used as a term of abuse these days. Also, not all Jews are legalists and there are plenty of non-Jews who are legalists - such a remark would rightly upset some Jews (just as calling you an 'antinomian American' might). Finally, I am not Messianic Jewish and could potentially resent being boxed, categorised and then condemned. However, I do truly understand where you're coming from and I perceive you are having struggles reconciling the love and justice of Yahweh - it's not easy for sure and some things are admittedly currently beyond our ken. We have, one the one hand, to reconcile the love which was the death of His Only Begotten Son on the Cross and the love which was the swallowing up of Korah and the rebels into the earth, the slaying of the satanic Molech-serving Amalekites and Canaanites, the execution of Ananias and Saphira, the destruction of the wicked, etc., etc..

I am sorry you felt no love, only anger, but I do assure you that that was entirely subjective on your part, since you really do not know my heart :) Having worked as a deliverance minister hands-on for many years, and had to deal with Satan and demons face-to-face more than I would have liked, I have to say in all candor that I cannot allow an iota of sympathy for them into my being - they are none of my affair since I am not involved - and never will be involved - in their redemption, assuming that is even on Yahweh's agenda (which I don't believe, as you know) - my business and my commission is with people whom these scumbags are seeking to destroy - I care only to kick them out - I hand them over to Yahweh and He deals with the rest which is none of my affair. There is not an iota of compassion in them as there is in even the most wicked and depraved human being - I have no time for them, no sympathy for them, no love OR hate for them, and I make no apology for that. They are none of my business. If you think that is "Jewish legalism" then I am sorry because I know exactly where I stand in this regard - there are no 'ifs and 'buts'.

In Job, YHWH was not "chatting" with Satan - this was Satan exercising his legalistic rights to accuse the Throne of Grace because of the agency that man has been given. This audience was his right under the dispensational rules of this human probation period. he is the daily acuser of the brethren. As a malak (angel), albeit fallen, he still has rights of access. This was not some casual chitter-chatter over a cup of tea. This was part of the daily routine of the Council of Yah's Elohim.

Grace, love and forgiveness must always be seen in the context of justice, and vice versa, so I cannot isolate them. Justice is an aspect and expression of Yah's love.

Peace brother :)

Timothy L. Cottle said:

Peace,
As I re-read my answer to Lev. I think anger may not be the right word to express what I felt from Lev as I read his post. I just felt an emptiness or lack of Spiritual Joy. I felt as if I was reading the thoughts of a legalistic Jew more than a Brother in Christ. I am not in any way trying to be argumentive or attacking Lev on a personal level. I am just trying to express what I felt when I read Lev's response. Lev please explain yourself again as it relates to GRACE, LOVE, FORGIVENESS. I do honor you for all the time and effort you expend spreading the Gospel. Peace, Tim

Peace to All,
Brother Lev, I pray you did not think I was calling you a legalistic Jew, because I was not. What I was saying with that statement, was all I got from your letter was a legalistic approach in trying to explain a Mystery of YHWY. I understand that not all Jews are legalistic, but I feel all practicing Jews are, because they have to more proof than the scriptures offer, that Christ is our Lord and Saviour, when the proof is written on their heart. The practicing Jew Lives by the Law when they should Live by GRACE (from the heart flows GRACE). I understand that many gentile churches are more like court houses that places of refuge, due to their legalistic practices. As I say, I try to contain all the hate in my heart for SIN, not a "being" or "organization". With that being said, I pray each day that I am not entertaining satan or any of the fallen angels in any way. When I spoke of Jews, I was not being derogatory to the Jewish race. I was speaking in the same manner as Christ did when he used the term Jews in the NT. Those Jews who are in power and control the synagogues. They, those Jews seemed to be doing satan's work for him. Those Jews did nothing but continually accuse Christ, using The Law as their justification. Satan is the great accuser, and it seems he has enticed man to perform his rituals for him. Now back to the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch holds no great place in my heart. I have only read it once and have come across some of its contents in other readings, and know of it from the bible. When I read it, I found the book interesting, but it did nothing for me spiritually at that time. It was more intellectual and curious, than spiritual and upliftings. Now I must say that is how I felt at the time. Someone else might get a spiritual uplifting experience from the reading of Enoch. So this is not a pet book of mine. My only defense of the book is that it be judged by the same standards that you judged the AC, before the organization adopted it (the AC) as its foundation of FAITH. When DR stated in one of His letters (I believe it was DR) that a contradiction to scripture was contained in the book of Enoch related to the fact that fallen angels are given GRACE. I stated; did giving GRACE to a fallen angel break any if the commandments, and expounded upon that train of thought. It is said that we (mankind) entertain angels at times without knowing it. That is why we are to judge no man, yet show MERCY and GRACE to All. I suggest that as much as we would like to think that we only entertained angels of GRACE, that we have at times, entertained fallen angels also, and if one of those fallen angels had approched us and had asked us for forgiveness (even as a trap) after performing a great injustice to you/me/mankind, we would only fall into the trap if we didn't forgive. I would like to add another thought before closing. This group entertains a book named "The Olive Branch" as a book of Prophecy, which in my eyes elevates the book to that of canonized Scripture. Prophecy is either The WORD of YHWY or it is not. Canonized Scripture is either The WORD of YWHY or it is not. Who reviewed The Olive Branch, what council sat in judgement of "The Olive Branch" and what criteria did they use to promote that book to that of Canonized Scripture status? Maybe we should use the same criteria to examine the book of Enoch. Blessings of FAITH, LOVE, and WORKS, for these are the fullness of the WORD.

Shalom Timothy - I have no disagreements with you about the Synagogue of Satan and I agree that far too many people try to hide behind the Torah to avoid the truth of Yah'shua - not that that invalidates Torah, it is simply an abuse of it not at all dissimilar to the abuse of Grace that some follow in order to avoid being obedient to the commandments (my next sermon goes into this in some depth).

I am not opposed to an expanded canon nor do I believe there are not other scriptures that contain the same inspirational imprint as the Protestant Canon. But for the sake of unity I think it is important than we limit ourselves jurisdictionally and abide (as far as the OT is concerned) to the decision of the Council of Jamnia. All Christendom is agreed as to the inspiration of the Protestant Canon so I believe that has to be all our common ground.

As with most of the pseudegrapha claiming to have some historical basis (that is, dealing with historical events), I believe there are elements of truth. I don't think any of them are 100% spurious, but that some are more spurious than others. I am sure there must be some basis of fact in parts of the Book of Enoch but I am satisfied that it is corrupt enough to make it dangerous for those weak in the faith. Any book that is the darling of occultists sends up red flags and I want to know why. And usually it is because it serves an antichrist occult agenda. (Let's face it, the Book of Enoch has all the makings of a fleshy epic Hollywood movie, so I am not surprised people are drawn to it).

The Apostles Creed is altogether another kettle of fish - it's simply a compendium of Scriptural truth and, in spite of the title (clearly it was authored after the apostles), is a good summary. I think it is particularly imporant in these days when there are so many heresies coming out of the Messianic movment, especially those that deny the virgin birth, the physical resurrection and the deity of Messiah. If there are errors in it, then I don't see why they can't be corrected (Christian raises one or two areas of concern).

I am really not here to "push" a creed as though it were Scripture, though - it's no more than a summary of key NT doctrines. We have founded it invaluable in establishing our agenda in a public network like this one where you meet "all types" so that we do not go round in circles arguing over doctrines that are "taken" and so waste our energy and time when our job is to witness from a defined platform.

The Olive Branch is not scripture in the sense the Bible is precisely because it has not been rigorously tested over time and we don't want to waste our time defending something that is not universally accepted by all believers, and never will be. Time may discard or reduce it - who can tell - though we have had a vision of it in the future as a much slimmer volume (There's an Olive Branch group if you want to discuss this further). As regards canonicity, I once had a very useful discussion with a minister from Radio Bible Class which helped settle my mind - he (as a die-hard Baptist, incidentally) agreed that the Bible wasn't all the inspired writing there was and that other scriptures might turn up - his problem and position (which is mine too now) is that we would never come to unity and end up quarreling over what is inspired and what isn't instead of getting the message of salvation out - best to let Yah'shua sort that out when He returns. That is why I do NOT support Messianics who seem hell-bent on getting the Book of Enoch, Book of Jasher, and plenty of other dubious texts made canonical - there are too many itching ears for something 'new' so that what ends up happening is a conveyor-belt of 'new scriptures' and 'new teachings' to keep people titillated instead of focussed on Messiah. We have ourselves been down that road and since backtracked, realising it was unfruitful.

I hope that helps and clarifies.



Timothy L. Cottle said:

Peace to All,
Brother Lev, I pray you did not think I was calling you a legalistic Jew, because I was not. What I was saying with that statement, was all I got from your letter was a legalistic approach in trying to explain a Mystery of YHWY. I understand that not all Jews are legalistic, but I feel all practicing Jews are, because they have to more proof than the scriptures offer, that Christ is our Lord and Saviour, when the proof is written on their heart. The practicing Jew Lives by the Law when they should Live by GRACE (from the heart flows GRACE). I understand that many gentile churches are more like court houses that places of refuge, due to their legalistic practices. As I say, I try to contain all the hate in my heart for SIN, not a "being" or "organization". With that being said, I pray each day that I am not entertaining satan or any of the fallen angels in any way. When I spoke of Jews, I was not being derogatory to the Jewish race. I was speaking in the same manner as Christ did when he used the term Jews in the NT. Those Jews who are in power and control the synagogues. They, those Jews seemed to be doing satan's work for him. Those Jews did nothing but continually accuse Christ, using The Law as their justification. Satan is the great accuser, and it seems he has enticed man to perform his rituals for him. Now back to the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch holds no great place in my heart. I have only read it once and have come across some of its contents in other readings, and know of it from the bible. When I read it, I found the book interesting, but it did nothing for me spiritually at that time. It was more intellectual and curious, than spiritual and upliftings. Now I must say that is how I felt at the time. Someone else might get a spiritual uplifting experience from the reading of Enoch. So this is not a pet book of mine. My only defense of the book is that it be judged by the same standards that you judged the AC, before the organization adopted it (the AC) as its foundation of FAITH. When DR stated in one of His letters (I believe it was DR) that a contradiction to scripture was contained in the book of Enoch related to the fact that fallen angels are given GRACE. I stated; did giving GRACE to a fallen angel break any if the commandments, and expounded upon that train of thought. It is said that we (mankind) entertain angels at times without knowing it. That is why we are to judge no man, yet show MERCY and GRACE to All. I suggest that as much as we would like to think that we only entertained angels of GRACE, that we have at times, entertained fallen angels also, and if one of those fallen angels had approched us and had asked us for forgiveness (even as a trap) after performing a great injustice to you/me/mankind, we would only fall into the trap if we didn't forgive. I would like to add another thought before closing. This group entertains a book named "The Olive Branch" as a book of Prophecy, which in my eyes elevates the book to that of canonized Scripture. Prophecy is either The WORD of YHWY or it is not. Canonized Scripture is either The WORD of YWHY or it is not. Who reviewed The Olive Branch, what council sat in judgement of "The Olive Branch" and what criteria did they use to promote that book to that of Canonized Scripture status? Maybe we should use the same criteria to examine the book of Enoch. Blessings of FAITH, LOVE, and WORKS, for these are the fullness of the WORD.

Well Catholic creeds seem to be a bit of a mixed bag but perhaps we could start with the athanasian creed. It basically was a pretext for splitting from the church of the East, which is the opposite and a perversion of the very claim of "catholicism" or a universal "church". Named for a Bishop who did time in an asylum there are 3 departures from the apostolic creed found in the athanasion abomination. First of all it damns all who do not hold the Holy Spirit is considered as male, it has (depending on which version one accepts as more authentic) degrees of utter confusion on the echad unity of Yhwh, damning those who similarly digress from ther mangod zeus language which reduces Yhwh "Father" to personhood which scripture NEVER does. Chew on this for sound doctrine; ( from one of seemingly limitless versions of the creed) the doctrine of the Trinity, derived from the Athanasian Creed. The Latin reads: "The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God; God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit; The Father is not the Son, The Son is not the Father, The Father is not the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is not the Father, The Son is not the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is not the Son." ...yeah right, got that?

Hello Avah,
I read your post when you first added it to the discussion. I keep comming back to it in my mind, thinking of the question you posed: How can we forgive someone who hasn't repented or forgiven themselves? We as servents to Christ (in this world, Brothers in the next) should always look to Christ for our answers. Christ was the one who said 'Forgive them Father for they know not what they do'. Christ is saying to forgive without waiting on repentance from the being in need of forgiveness. Some might argue yes, forgive those who sin in ignorance, for their sin is done in ignorance, but to those who sin with full knowledge must repent before forgiveness. I say the act of forgiveness provides a service as benificial, if not more, to the person doing the forgiving than the one being forgiven. In a sense, when we say no forgiveness without repentance we are condeming ourselves, for no one could repent without first Mercy and Grace being applied to us in our fallen state. In turn if we pray and expect forgiveness for ourselves then we must forgive not just those repentant, but those unrepentant as well. Also, if we wait on an act of contrition to be displayed by the sinner before forgiving, then we are letting someone else dictate our actions, thereby promoting inaction and using repentance as the justification of such inaction. We know from the Laws there is really no inaction, so our inability to perform an action (forgiveness) ordianed by Christ starts an action (stubborness) within ourselves that begins to eat away at our very fabric, much like a cancer. Forgiveness frees the Spirit of the forgiver as well as the forgiven. I am by no means saying let those who have proven they can not live without destorying the fabric/cloth, become part of that cloth. To do so would destory fabric. I Am one of the most forgiving beings you will ever meet, but I understand that we as humans are limited by our resources. So let us say; to let a murder roam our villages because we feel restriced from action (frozen by inaction) due to our forgiving nature would be a crime itself against our very fabric. Should we as a society use our resources imprisoning our most hideous offenders, placing them where they have to be gaurded, taxing our resources? What is the solution? Forgiveness with appropriate action. Which we can discuss at a later time if you wish. I do enjoy reading your thoughts and learn from all the brothers and sisters who express themselves in this fourm. Blessings of Faith, Love, and Works for these are the fullness of The WORD. Peace, Tim

Avah said:

The question isn't about whether Yahweh has or will forgive satan, the true question is, has satan repented? I know what the book of Revelation says. We are servants of the Most High, and we cannot make Him in our own image. Are we to forgive? Absolutely, yet how can we forgive someone who has not repented? We can hold no grudge, but we cannot be in right standing or relationship with that person until they repent and apologize.



Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Group,
Michael establishes some very interesting points about the book of Enoch. There does seem to be a contradiction about the fallen angels and the forgiveness of those and satan by YHWY. I Am sure YHWY has the capibilties to unite the forestated contradiction. I Am not advocating that the book of Encoh be added to the Bible as a part of the canon. I Am just, in my humble pleadings, asking for the book to be given the consideration that it deserves. To address the question Michael rasied about YHWY forgiving the fallen angels. Let us consider the fact that Christ chose twelve disciples and one of those twelve being of the nature of a fallen angel. Christ knew of Judas' nature and chose him anyway. Why? Well, many breath has passed man's lips on this subject. I believe that Christ chose Judas to show the true followers of The Way the power of Love. We are to Love all for All is the essense of YHWY. Did Christ forgive Judas? To be choosen as a disciple of Christ under those circumstances implies forgiveness, for Christ knew the outcome. Was he (Judas)reinstated to his former position in Christ, not in this life (that we know of), but possibly in another. So, If we examine the book by asking does the concept of YHWY forgiving satan break any of the commandments Christ spoke to his disciples, I would aruge no. In fact it supports the commandment of forgiveness. How manys times are we to forgive Christ was asked, seventy times seven was His reply. If we expect forgiveness then we must have a forgiving heart. Would not YHWY forgiving satan be an example of such Forgiveness and LOVE. Let The Lord WORK out those seemingly contradictions. His Thoughts are not our thoughts. I would think that satan's reinstatement to his former glory hinges on the ability of satan to ask for forgiveness. YHWY's forgiveness is Universal. I forgive my friends who have slighted me in some manner. Some are not reinstated to their former postion because they chose not to be, not because I rejected them. Can one forgive and reject? Back to the book of Enoch. Angela implied/stated that the book didn't meet the Gematria standard of langauge, so therefore it must remain hidden from canonical Scripture. It may be that the Book should remain hidden, for a treasure to be safe from the theives of world must be concealed, but not for the reason of numerical coding. Blessing of Faith, Love and Works for these are the fullness of the WORD. Tim

In the context of this discussion, how do you explain the desire on the part of the martyred faithful calling for vengeance?

Rev 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
NKJV


Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Avah,
I read your post when you first added it to the discussion. I keep comming back to it in my mind, thinking of the question you posed: How can we forgive someone who hasn't repented or forgiven themselves? We as servents to Christ (in this world, Brothers in the next) should always look to Christ for our answers. Christ was the one who said 'Forgive them Father for they know not what they do'. Christ is saying to forgive without waiting on repentance from the being in need of forgiveness. Some might argue yes, forgive those who sin in ignorance, for their sin is done in ignorance, but to those who sin with full knowledge must repent before forgiveness. I say the act of forgiveness provides a service as benificial, if not more, to the person doing the forgiving than the one being forgiven. In a sense, when we say no forgiveness without repentance we are condeming ourselves, for no one could repent without first Mercy and Grace being applied to us in our fallen state. In turn if we pray and expect forgiveness for ourselves then we must forgive not just those repentant, but those unrepentant as well. Also, if we wait on an act of contrition to be displayed by the sinner before forgiving, then we are letting someone else dictate our actions, thereby promoting inaction and using repentance as the justification of such inaction. We know from the Laws there is really no inaction, so our inability to perform an action (forgiveness) ordianed by Christ starts an action (stubborness) within ourselves that begins to eat away at our very fabric, much like a cancer. Forgiveness frees the Spirit of the forgiver as well as the forgiven. I am by no means saying let those who have proven they can not live without destorying the fabric/cloth, become part of that cloth. To do so would destory fabric. I Am one of the most forgiving beings you will ever meet, but I understand that we as humans are limited by our resources. So let us say; to let a murder roam our villages because we feel restriced from action (frozen by inaction) due to our forgiving nature would be a crime itself against our very fabric. Should we as a society use our resources imprisoning our most hideous offenders, placing them where they have to be gaurded, taxing our resources? What is the solution? Forgiveness with appropriate action. Which we can discuss at a later time if you wish. I do enjoy reading your thoughts and learn from all the brothers and sisters who express themselves in this fourm. Blessings of Faith, Love, and Works for these are the fullness of The WORD. Peace, Tim

Avah said:

The question isn't about whether Yahweh has or will forgive satan, the true question is, has satan repented? I know what the book of Revelation says. We are servants of the Most High, and we cannot make Him in our own image. Are we to forgive? Absolutely, yet how can we forgive someone who has not repented? We can hold no grudge, but we cannot be in right standing or relationship with that person until they repent and apologize.



Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Group,
Michael establishes some very interesting points about the book of Enoch. There does seem to be a contradiction about the fallen angels and the forgiveness of those and satan by YHWY. I Am sure YHWY has the capibilties to unite the forestated contradiction. I Am not advocating that the book of Encoh be added to the Bible as a part of the canon. I Am just, in my humble pleadings, asking for the book to be given the consideration that it deserves. To address the question Michael rasied about YHWY forgiving the fallen angels. Let us consider the fact that Christ chose twelve disciples and one of those twelve being of the nature of a fallen angel. Christ knew of Judas' nature and chose him anyway. Why? Well, many breath has passed man's lips on this subject. I believe that Christ chose Judas to show the true followers of The Way the power of Love. We are to Love all for All is the essense of YHWY. Did Christ forgive Judas? To be choosen as a disciple of Christ under those circumstances implies forgiveness, for Christ knew the outcome. Was he (Judas)reinstated to his former position in Christ, not in this life (that we know of), but possibly in another. So, If we examine the book by asking does the concept of YHWY forgiving satan break any of the commandments Christ spoke to his disciples, I would aruge no. In fact it supports the commandment of forgiveness. How manys times are we to forgive Christ was asked, seventy times seven was His reply. If we expect forgiveness then we must have a forgiving heart. Would not YHWY forgiving satan be an example of such Forgiveness and LOVE. Let The Lord WORK out those seemingly contradictions. His Thoughts are not our thoughts. I would think that satan's reinstatement to his former glory hinges on the ability of satan to ask for forgiveness. YHWY's forgiveness is Universal. I forgive my friends who have slighted me in some manner. Some are not reinstated to their former postion because they chose not to be, not because I rejected them. Can one forgive and reject? Back to the book of Enoch. Angela implied/stated that the book didn't meet the Gematria standard of langauge, so therefore it must remain hidden from canonical Scripture. It may be that the Book should remain hidden, for a treasure to be safe from the theives of world must be concealed, but not for the reason of numerical coding. Blessing of Faith, Love and Works for these are the fullness of the WORD. Tim

Shalom Timothy,

I worded that completely wrong, because we DO forgive, even if the person never repents, I didn't mean to imply that our forgiveness depends on that. But what I did mean was that even if we do forgive them, as we should, fellowship, restoration and resolution cannot be found until they repent.

As a survivor of all manner of abuses, I know full well the importance of forgiveness, not for their sake, but for mine. We do indeed free ourselves when we forgive and leave judgement in Yahweh's hands. I do not however find any place in scripture where Yahweh tells us that we are to forgive satan, however there are plenty of scriptures warning us about him and then telling us about his future and his end.


Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Avah,
I read your post when you first added it to the discussion. I keep comming back to it in my mind, thinking of the question you posed: How can we forgive someone who hasn't repented or forgiven themselves? We as servents to Christ (in this world, Brothers in the next) should always look to Christ for our answers. Christ was the one who said 'Forgive them Father for they know not what they do'. Christ is saying to forgive without waiting on repentance from the being in need of forgiveness. Some might argue yes, forgive those who sin in ignorance, for their sin is done in ignorance, but to those who sin with full knowledge must repent before forgiveness. I say the act of forgiveness provides a service as benificial, if not more, to the person doing the forgiving than the one being forgiven. In a sense, when we say no forgiveness without repentance we are condeming ourselves, for no one could repent without first Mercy and Grace being applied to us in our fallen state. In turn if we pray and expect forgiveness for ourselves then we must forgive not just those repentant, but those unrepentant as well. Also, if we wait on an act of contrition to be displayed by the sinner before forgiving, then we are letting someone else dictate our actions, thereby promoting inaction and using repentance as the justification of such inaction. We know from the Laws there is really no inaction, so our inability to perform an action (forgiveness) ordianed by Christ starts an action (stubborness) within ourselves that begins to eat away at our very fabric, much like a cancer. Forgiveness frees the Spirit of the forgiver as well as the forgiven. I am by no means saying let those who have proven they can not live without destorying the fabric/cloth, become part of that cloth. To do so would destory fabric. I Am one of the most forgiving beings you will ever meet, but I understand that we as humans are limited by our resources. So let us say; to let a murder roam our villages because we feel restriced from action (frozen by inaction) due to our forgiving nature would be a crime itself against our very fabric. Should we as a society use our resources imprisoning our most hideous offenders, placing them where they have to be gaurded, taxing our resources? What is the solution? Forgiveness with appropriate action. Which we can discuss at a later time if you wish. I do enjoy reading your thoughts and learn from all the brothers and sisters who express themselves in this fourm. Blessings of Faith, Love, and Works for these are the fullness of The WORD. Peace, Tim

Avah said:

The question isn't about whether Yahweh has or will forgive satan, the true question is, has satan repented? I know what the book of Revelation says. We are servants of the Most High, and we cannot make Him in our own image. Are we to forgive? Absolutely, yet how can we forgive someone who has not repented? We can hold no grudge, but we cannot be in right standing or relationship with that person until they repent and apologize.



Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Group,
Michael establishes some very interesting points about the book of Enoch. There does seem to be a contradiction about the fallen angels and the forgiveness of those and satan by YHWY. I Am sure YHWY has the capibilties to unite the forestated contradiction. I Am not advocating that the book of Encoh be added to the Bible as a part of the canon. I Am just, in my humble pleadings, asking for the book to be given the consideration that it deserves. To address the question Michael rasied about YHWY forgiving the fallen angels. Let us consider the fact that Christ chose twelve disciples and one of those twelve being of the nature of a fallen angel. Christ knew of Judas' nature and chose him anyway. Why? Well, many breath has passed man's lips on this subject. I believe that Christ chose Judas to show the true followers of The Way the power of Love. We are to Love all for All is the essense of YHWY. Did Christ forgive Judas? To be choosen as a disciple of Christ under those circumstances implies forgiveness, for Christ knew the outcome. Was he (Judas)reinstated to his former position in Christ, not in this life (that we know of), but possibly in another. So, If we examine the book by asking does the concept of YHWY forgiving satan break any of the commandments Christ spoke to his disciples, I would aruge no. In fact it supports the commandment of forgiveness. How manys times are we to forgive Christ was asked, seventy times seven was His reply. If we expect forgiveness then we must have a forgiving heart. Would not YHWY forgiving satan be an example of such Forgiveness and LOVE. Let The Lord WORK out those seemingly contradictions. His Thoughts are not our thoughts. I would think that satan's reinstatement to his former glory hinges on the ability of satan to ask for forgiveness. YHWY's forgiveness is Universal. I forgive my friends who have slighted me in some manner. Some are not reinstated to their former postion because they chose not to be, not because I rejected them. Can one forgive and reject? Back to the book of Enoch. Angela implied/stated that the book didn't meet the Gematria standard of langauge, so therefore it must remain hidden from canonical Scripture. It may be that the Book should remain hidden, for a treasure to be safe from the theives of world must be concealed, but not for the reason of numerical coding. Blessing of Faith, Love and Works for these are the fullness of the WORD. Tim

Peace,
Lev, I Am at a disavantage because you are asking me to explain someone's desire. I know many desire justice and some feel vengeance is a part of justice. The Saint's are asking about an event in time. I will argue that the event in time (the Saints are inquiring about) has nothing to do with our mandate to forgive as the body of Christ. The first scripture that comes to mind is Romans chapter Twelve. A chapter of Living Sacrifices and Love. I will quote NIV (Romans 12:19) "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay, says the Lord." (Romans 12:21) "Do not be over come by evil, but over come evil with good. The Day the Saints are inquiring about in Revelation is more than likely a day mentioned in (Isaiah 34:8) "for the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause." In (1 Timothy 3:1-16) there is an interesting set of verses. After Paul stating that we will know how people in the Church of The Living God, The Pillar and Foundation of The Truth, should act by reading the verses he wrote in (1 Timothy 3:1-13). He states the mystery of goodiness is great. He makes a statement that implies (from my reading) that Christ has already been revenged/avenged/vendicated. When one is vendicated, it said that he has been given His revenge. The next qoute is Paul using only past tenses, implying all has taken place. (1 Timothy 3:16) Paul states: " He appeared in a body, was vindicated by The Spirit, was seen by the angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory." Now that is a creed I will swear by. The reason I mentioned that verse is because we who profess Christ as our Saviour and claim to be the body/church of Christ already have our vengence. We have been vendicated by The Spirit. We have no concern with the Day of Wrath/Vengence. I do not advise any one to entertain the fallen angels in any manner, I also do not advise them to build hate in their heart for them either. Hate sin, Pray for forgiveness and hold no feelings for fallen angels, love or hate. We as servents of Christ should have no concern for a fallen angel. Forgive all that trespass and focus on the prize. Blessings of Faith, Love , and Works, for these are the fullness of The WORD. Tim


Lev/Christopher said:

In the context of this discussion, how do you explain the desire on the part of the martyred faithful calling for vengeance?

Rev 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
NKJV


Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Avah,
I read your post when you first added it to the discussion. I keep comming back to it in my mind, thinking of the question you posed: How can we forgive someone who hasn't repented or forgiven themselves? We as servents to Christ (in this world, Brothers in the next) should always look to Christ for our answers. Christ was the one who said 'Forgive them Father for they know not what they do'. Christ is saying to forgive without waiting on repentance from the being in need of forgiveness. Some might argue yes, forgive those who sin in ignorance, for their sin is done in ignorance, but to those who sin with full knowledge must repent before forgiveness. I say the act of forgiveness provides a service as benificial, if not more, to the person doing the forgiving than the one being forgiven. In a sense, when we say no forgiveness without repentance we are condeming ourselves, for no one could repent without first Mercy and Grace being applied to us in our fallen state. In turn if we pray and expect forgiveness for ourselves then we must forgive not just those repentant, but those unrepentant as well. Also, if we wait on an act of contrition to be displayed by the sinner before forgiving, then we are letting someone else dictate our actions, thereby promoting inaction and using repentance as the justification of such inaction. We know from the Laws there is really no inaction, so our inability to perform an action (forgiveness) ordianed by Christ starts an action (stubborness) within ourselves that begins to eat away at our very fabric, much like a cancer. Forgiveness frees the Spirit of the forgiver as well as the forgiven. I am by no means saying let those who have proven they can not live without destorying the fabric/cloth, become part of that cloth. To do so would destory fabric. I Am one of the most forgiving beings you will ever meet, but I understand that we as humans are limited by our resources. So let us say; to let a murder roam our villages because we feel restriced from action (frozen by inaction) due to our forgiving nature would be a crime itself against our very fabric. Should we as a society use our resources imprisoning our most hideous offenders, placing them where they have to be gaurded, taxing our resources? What is the solution? Forgiveness with appropriate action. Which we can discuss at a later time if you wish. I do enjoy reading your thoughts and learn from all the brothers and sisters who express themselves in this fourm. Blessings of Faith, Love, and Works for these are the fullness of The WORD. Peace, Tim

Avah said:

The question isn't about whether Yahweh has or will forgive satan, the true question is, has satan repented? I know what the book of Revelation says. We are servants of the Most High, and we cannot make Him in our own image. Are we to forgive? Absolutely, yet how can we forgive someone who has not repented? We can hold no grudge, but we cannot be in right standing or relationship with that person until they repent and apologize.



Timothy L. Cottle said:

Hello Group,
Michael establishes some very interesting points about the book of Enoch. There does seem to be a contradiction about the fallen angels and the forgiveness of those and satan by YHWY. I Am sure YHWY has the capibilties to unite the forestated contradiction. I Am not advocating that the book of Encoh be added to the Bible as a part of the canon. I Am just, in my humble pleadings, asking for the book to be given the consideration that it deserves. To address the question Michael rasied about YHWY forgiving the fallen angels. Let us consider the fact that Christ chose twelve disciples and one of those twelve being of the nature of a fallen angel. Christ knew of Judas' nature and chose him anyway. Why? Well, many breath has passed man's lips on this subject. I believe that Christ chose Judas to show the true followers of The Way the power of Love. We are to Love all for All is the essense of YHWY. Did Christ forgive Judas? To be choosen as a disciple of Christ under those circumstances implies forgiveness, for Christ knew the outcome. Was he (Judas)reinstated to his former position in Christ, not in this life (that we know of), but possibly in another. So, If we examine the book by asking does the concept of YHWY forgiving satan break any of the commandments Christ spoke to his disciples, I would aruge no. In fact it supports the commandment of forgiveness. How manys times are we to forgive Christ was asked, seventy times seven was His reply. If we expect forgiveness then we must have a forgiving heart. Would not YHWY forgiving satan be an example of such Forgiveness and LOVE. Let The Lord WORK out those seemingly contradictions. His Thoughts are not our thoughts. I would think that satan's reinstatement to his former glory hinges on the ability of satan to ask for forgiveness. YHWY's forgiveness is Universal. I forgive my friends who have slighted me in some manner. Some are not reinstated to their former postion because they chose not to be, not because I rejected them. Can one forgive and reject? Back to the book of Enoch. Angela implied/stated that the book didn't meet the Gematria standard of langauge, so therefore it must remain hidden from canonical Scripture. It may be that the Book should remain hidden, for a treasure to be safe from the theives of world must be concealed, but not for the reason of numerical coding. Blessing of Faith, Love and Works for these are the fullness of the WORD. Tim