Świętosława's Corner 35
Mindless & Brainwashed
A Response to Prejudgment
Well, it has happened yet again. A Christian has found the HEM site and only gets as far as reading that it is a pro-polygamy site and the guts go into red alert. There is moral outrage and moral indignation based on nothing more than visceral reactions to a principle that is not understood. So begin the accusations of sin and ignorance, yet again without any scripture backup. I will illustrate from the latest email we have been sent.
I feel you have truly missed something!!! Anyone can take the Bible twist it and make it whatever they want. To treat women as if they are less then yourself because of something no one had a choice in ... rather they are born male or female is a form of superiority and it is called IGNORANCE!!!
Now this opening is from someone none of us have ever met and immediately enters an opinion of ignorance without even taking long enough to study the information on the web site, much less get to know any of us. I wonder who would be the ignorant one by any reasonable definition of the word? This woman is also making assumptions about women being treated as less than our husband is also most ignorant as this woman has no idea in this world how our husband treats us. Again, a little further research could have saved this woman a lot of looking foolish but she was not interested in accuracy and truth, not to mention Christian charity, only in what her gut told her was wrong. I considered launching into an exhaustive exegesis presenting the voluminous scriptural support for the principle but I quickly discerned that this sister is not interested in what the Bible says but in how she feels about a lifestyle that frightens her and she does not understand. The scriptural exegesis is explicitly laid out at HEM and many other places and she could have found all the references she needed if that was what she was looking for. Obviously it was not. Let us continue with her insightful message.
You do have a hidden agenda and it is not because of Christianity it's more self serving. What amazes me is the women you have married seem to be mindless or brain washed. Women need to wake up and realize they are not getting into Heaven by their husband's coat tails or in your case husband. God talks to women too we are not mindless soulless creatures who by a fate of gender have no control over our own souls and lives!!! I suppose you realize by now that I am a woman. My own personal walk with Christ has taught me a lot about my role as a woman in his plan of salvation
Now I pose a question to those of you who either know me or have been reading my works for a while. Do I present as mindless or brainwashed? I recommend that this sister reread her bible that she claims such familiarity with and read what our Lord has to say about slandering other Christians falsely. Also, recommended reading would be to read the passage in Galatians that spells out the fruits of the Spirit and ask herself honestly if this emotional little diatribe evidences any fruits. Here is a pearl of wisdom for you sister. None of us have any control of our lives. Either Yahweh or Satan control them but we have no control except in the choice we make as to who to serve in our lives. If you believe any different then I would have a somewhat different estimation about who is indeed mindless and brainwashed since such an attitude has no scriptural backing at all. The plan of salvation is not different for men and women. The Apostle Paul waxes eloquent on the subject. There are, however, different roles for women and men. The scriptural support for that idea is equally eloquent. Women are not worth less than men, but their roles are different. If you have a problem, I suggest that you take it up with the Father as it is by His word that we make that determination. For you see, dear sister, it matters not what you or I say, nor what your gut tells you. All that matters is the truth of scripture, all of scripture. You cannot pick and choose what you want to accept or reject.
I have the gift of discerning spirits, visions, and dreams ... Woman have and always will carry out God's missions throughout life. Unless they let themselves become compromised by men such as yourself. The sad thing is I know this is in vain because Honestly you have roped a few dopes. As a woman I don't feel any man is worth my salvation. I am thankful that my husband who is a preacher is wise enough in the Lord to know better. He does love me like Christ loves the Church NOT Churches (remember there is one TRUE Church of Christ). The Old Testament is full of husbands having more then one wife but it has been fulfilled. The New Testament says to be the husband of ONE wife. Which I know you have heard this and probably even realize it ... but that's were that ole twist comes in!!! What is sad is you think this is okay with God. Have you tried the spirits???
You know evil spirits can speak to you also. Proof and point is who do you think is the true author of the Quran/Koran??? I will give you a hint it ain't GOD!!! Just look at how many Satan has lead astray by use of the Quran/Koran. The stronger we get in our walk with Christ the more we have to rebuke Satan. If Satan has not been knocking on your door or your wives for that matter then you are doing his will. Apparently you don't think there is a need for correction or you would not have built a site boasting about your many wives. Honestly I don't know how you would correct it here on earth and make everyone happy. But which is more important earthly of Heavenly??? I have already prayed about this matter maybe you should and don't forget to test those Spirits!!!
Perhaps you do have the gift for discerning spirits, perhaps you do not. Your claim does not necessarily make it so and in this instance you could not be further from the mark so I must say that I have questions as to the accuracy of your discernments. I have a bit of a gift of discernment myself and would like to vocalize to you my discernment of the spirit you have written this letter in. In a word, FEAR. You are not spiritually mature enough or intellectually honest enough to legitimately investigate the principle of righteous Christian/Messianic polygamy because in your carnal mind, you are terrified of the idea, and even more terrified of the idea that you might find out that you could conceivably be called to live it because you do not possess the spiritual integrity to even contemplate it honestly. Since you perceive yourself to be such a staunch and mature Christian, it therefore follows that any woman who would live, and be blessed in, plural marriage must be portrayed as a mindless, brainless twit because otherwise, if you accept that good Christian women are living this principle successfully and blessedly, then you would have to admit that your own spirituality is flawed and you have not the courage or honesty to do that. Your groundless assumptions and lack of any but the very vaguest of scriptural paraphrasing attest to that amply. My husband and I both have addressed the one wife verses in great and specific detail but I suspect you either know that already or could care less because if you had read the relevant scriptures and information we have published regarding the subject, and if you were in a frame of mind to be able to accept the plain truth of scripture, you would at least be able to allow that, at the very least, polygamy is not prohibited in scripture. Instead, you use the tired, old false interpretation that scripture somehow prohibits more than one wife. It does not in any case, but if you truly think I am wrong, I welcome you to send me your references, scriptural that is. They are simply not there but if you can prove me wrong, I am teachable. Further, at the risk of sounding just a bit acerbic, I am carrying out a mission for Father Yahweh in my life, as you would have absolutely no way of knowing, so that is another remark made through the lens of emotionalism in ignorance. And yes, sister, there is one church made of many members. The Apostle Paul and the Apostle John lay it out quite clearly. Evidently you never studied the scriptures in enough depth to develop any understanding of the concept of uniplurality. There is one Body, but many members. Is a light coming on yet? Further, I know my way of life is ok with Yahweh since He brought me to it, through many obstacles. Of course, that is something else about which you have an opinion but no knowledge.
What is your point? We do not read or abide by the Koran. We are Christians, not Moslems. Again, emotion has led you to speak ignorantly. As for your assertion that we have not had any battles with Satan, you once again show your ignorance and arrogance by asserting something as fact that you could not possibly know. A very human failing, I must say, but not one I would look for from an avowed Christian who claims the gift of discernment. What precisely do you think our husband should do? Send all but one of us away? That, sister, is positively demonic.
1 Tim 4:1-3, NAS
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which Elohim (God) has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
Do you see? You are forbidding marriage and tearing apart what Yahweh has joined together It seems to me that you have a great deal of work to do on your attitude and understanding. You might first begin with a healthy dose of honesty and top it off with some diligent study. And you might fervently pray that Yahweh deliver you from the objectionable habit of assuming facts not in evidence. I will pray that you are able to do so. Please realize, sister, that you do your own witness no good and our marriage no harm with your groundless assumptions.
If you would like to honestly investigate the principle of plural marriage, or any other scriptural principle for that matter, I would be honored to study with you and share some of my admittedly limited insights. I, however, will not lend credence to baseless innuendo and emotional invective. Perhaps if we can both discourse with each other from a platform of respect and Christian love, then we could have a dialogue that would profit both of us. I shall pray that we may do so.
In His Love
In His Service
Świętosława Brzezinska Królewieca
A Response to Ignorance
I read a little more on your web page and it grows more unbelievable the more I read. I am now certain you have a problem either believing in the wrong spirits or you think of yourself as being in the same position as Christ. 1 Cor. 11:3 --- But I would have you know that the head of every MAN is Christ: and the head of the WOMAN is the MAN: and the head of Christ is God: Notice there are NO PLURALS!!! This is how the GODHEAD is suppose to work. IT DOES NOT SAY --- and the head of the women is the MAN.
Again you have seen fit to send my husband a rambling letter voicing opinions that are not substantiated in scripture, nor, in fact, in reality. I will continue to try to maintain a Christian spirit with you as it is obvious that you have no such intentions and one of us should. I had thought to avoid extensive exegesis since you have not seemed interested in what the actual scriptural truth is, but in light of the fact that you have accused our husband of very serious sin baselessly, it is profoundly important for your own spiritual safety that someone inform you of the error and sin you are committing as we speak. We will analyse your mail bit by bit to illustrate and cite scriptural references, of which I will demonstrate a multitude, to prove my statements and invalidate yours. Remember, sister, when you charge another member of the Body with sin, it is your scriptural duty to substantiate and prove it, and your visceral reactions are proof of absolutely nothing!!! Let us begin then. You stated:
The first verse of scripture you have offered yet and you have gotten it so obviously wrong that it embarrasses me for you to have to point it out, but I will. Your illogical conclusion that because the wording of this passage does not specifically utilize plurals is sloppy rationalization at best. It states that the head of every man is Christ. Does this mean that since the singular word, man, was used, that there is only one man who is Christian? Quite untidy reasoning by any reckoning. A woman's head is her husband, and that does not change whether he has one wife or four. Nor does it change just because singular nouns were utilized to illustrate this. So, you see, dear sister, that my disagreement is not with scripture, which I support and believe in whole-heartedly, but in your erroneous and illogical interpretation of it in an attempt to justify an unjustifiable opinion. If this were as far as your missive went, however, I could peacefully leave it at that, but your error grows grave in the next few sentences. Let's take a look shall we? You said:
You told Świętosława that the Holy Spirit is a woman??? WOW ... The Holy Spirit is the energy of God in creation. When the Holy Spirit courses through my body it is energy like a mild current of electricity with no male or female distinction.
Perhaps you could, sister, explain just what the above comments have to do with the polygamy issue? The nature and gender of the Holy Spirit, is entirely irrelevant to the subject at hand and an entirely separate debate which we can take up as well if you like, but this is not the proper forum, for here it is just a clumsy attempt on your part to divert from the discussion at hand. We can begin another discussion about the Spirit if you like, but this is not the place so I will not permit this diversionary tactic at this time. Not bad for a mindless, brainwashed twit is it, sissy? Now let us continue for now we come to the accusations and this is important, not for me to disprove for we do not bear the burden of proof, but to try to show you your error and jeopardy so you can repent of your adamantly demonic behavior and attitudes. You said:
You mislead these women (your so-called wives) into your some kind of genesis. Take away any distraction such as modern music or TV so you can keep them in your control. I did notice something about your family pictures not many smiles among the women or yourself. Your two oldest children with Suszana aren't smiling either. One big happy family??? Apparently you could NOT keep Suszana happy. Divorce ... has that happened??? If Suszana has another husband you helped cause her to commit adultery but that is what your doing under your own roof with all these other brain washed women. You need to rethink your position. Christianity has enough Black eyes without another ambush of God's Word!!!
Well, the first thing I think we need to establish is what scripture has to say about false accusations so let's take a look, shall we?
"Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely" (Luke 3:14, NKJV).
To accuse a man or woman of sinning when they live polygamously is to intimidate and falsely accuse because Elohim (God) nowhere in the Bible says that having more than one wife is a sin or adultery - nowhere. What will happen to those who accuse polygamists of being adulterers or sinners?
"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you -- Moses" (John 5:45-46, NKJV).
Now, in case you are not sure of the implications, here is a hint for you. Moses was a polygamist. Not only that, in the books of Ezekiel and Jeremiah, Yahweh presents Himself allegorically as a polygamous husband. Shall we take a look?
"And their names were Oholah the elder and Oholibah her sister. And they became Mine, and they bore sons and daughters. And as for their names, Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem is Oholibah" (Ezek 23:4, NASB).
"Then Yahweh said to me in the days of Josiah the king, 'Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there'. And I thought, 'After she has done all these things, she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 'And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also. And it came about because of the lightness of her harlotry, that she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. And yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception," declares Yahweh" (Jer.3:6-10, NASB).
Now, as is plain to see from the above references, Yahweh Himself presents Himself allegorically as a polygamous husband. Do we need to cover the scriptures that ascertain beyond doubt that Yahweh is the same yesterday, today and forever? Or that Yah'shua (Jesus) did not do away with the Old Covenant, but He completed it? So the next question you have to ask yourself is this. Is it likely that Yahweh (God) would present Himself, even allegorically, in a situation that He would find abhorrent or sinful? Somehow, I think not.
As for us being Stanisław's so-called wives, that is what Yahweh sees us as, and if you are so certain of something else then I most urgently require scriptural proof of it, not your emotional and ignorant opinion. You are obviously not nearly as knowledgeable in scriptural truths as you would have us believe you are. Again you are trying to deny what Yahweh has joined together, with no reason or justification, but if you think I am wrong, it is your obligation to prove it or repent of the accusation.
As far as television and music are concerned, we have both of those, we are just very selective in what we expose ourselves to. Are you one of those Christians who believes that you can watch or listen to any trash you want to and it won't affect you spiritually? If so, then you are in grievous error and the false and arrogant spirit you are evidencing is completely explained, even apart from your visceral fear of something you have not the spiritual maturity or the intellectual integrity to understand. Stanisław does monitor what his family is exposed to, just as your husband should be monitoring what his family is exposed to. After all, Christian husbands will be held accountable for the spiritual health of their families, and frankly I am glad I do not have to bear that responsibility. That does not mean, however, that Stanisław dictates what we see or hear. For the most part, he trusts our judgement but if there were a discrepancy, his would be the determining opinion, since his is the ultimate responsibility. Besides, that is the scriptural role of a husband, if you will read the fourth chapter of Ephesians and the references in 1 Peter, 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians. Further, we have free access to computers and the internet so it is rather ridiculous to assert that we have no contact with the world, therefore he controls us someway in that manner. Our husband does head our family, just as scripture charges him to, but he does it with love, long-suffering, gentleness and self-sacrifice. I pray that your husband is as diligent. If he is, you are indeed a blessed woman.
Now let us address the pictures. If you had read as thoroughly as an ethical researcher would have before beginning to make assertions, you would have discovered the disclaimer we have posted explaining that the names and pictures were not our own, but pen names and facsimiles for pictures. This we have done for security reasons, as our family has been persecuted and our children ostracized by just such staunch Christians as yourself. I am sorry that you were left looking stupid, but it is your own fault. You simply must start obtaining the facts before you shoot off your mouth. You will save yourself much embarrassment that way.
Now, before we go any further I am going to teach you what scripture defines adultery as, since it is obvious by your last statements that you have not a clue. So, once again, let us look at what the Bible has to say about adultery and accurately discern the truth of scripture.
"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-23)
"And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith Yahweh-Elohim of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." (2 Samuel 12:7-8)
"But Elohim (God) came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou [art but] a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she [is] a man's wife. But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Master, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? Said he not unto me, She [is] my sister? and she, even she herself said, He [is] my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. And Elohim (God) said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. Now therefore restore the man [his] wife; for he [is] a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore [her] not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that [are] thine" (Genesis 20:3-7) .
"And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." Mark 10:12 Because, "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man" (Romans 7:1-3).
"If, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man" (Romans 7:3).
Adultery is the act of sexual intercourse between a married woman and someone other than her husband. When an unmarried woman plays the harlot it is called fornication. If she sleeps with a married man it is called adultery and/or fornication. I know this is difficult for modern, feminist Christians to accept, the demonstrable truth is that, at no time anywhere is scripture, is a man identified as an adulterer for having more than one wife. NOWHERE. There is, as is demonstrated explicitly above, a charge of adultery toward a married woman who has relations with a man who is not her husband. A man can be guilty of adultery but the scriptural criteria are a little different. That is also not to say that he cannot be guilty of fornication, which is also a grievous sin, but scripture just does not substantiate a charge of adultery against a man who has more than one wife. And if scripture does not substantiate the charge, then the accuser is in grievous sin when unable to prove such a slanderous charge. Now let us look at the instances when a man can be guilty of adultery.
"Whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32).
"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery" (Matthew 5:32).
The husband "causes her to commit adultery" when he divorces her for any reason other than sexual immorality. In that way he shares in her adultery. The wife is never said to "cause her husband to commit adultery when she divorces him for any other reason than sexual immorality", because he is free to be a polygynist. Now this may disturb your sensibilities, but again I must urge you to take it up with Yahweh for it is by His word that these determinations are made. We do not base our lives and our beliefs on our feelings, but on the truth of Yahweh's word. If you have an argument with them, you need to take it up with the Author.
"And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and (Greek 'kai') marry another, committeth adultery against her" (Mark 10:11).
"Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you" (1 Corinthians 7:27-28).
These verses protect a first wife from the possibility of her husband divorcing her to marry another. For you see, sister, we take marriage and its covenants every bit as seriously as Yahweh does. A man can be guilty of adultery, if he divorces his wife to take another, or if he has relations with another man's wife, but in no instance is he guilty of adultery if he takes an additional wife. The difference, and one that is increasingly ignored in mainstream Christian organizations, and such staunch believers as yourself, is that serial polygamy, which equates much more closely to the biblical description of adultery, is pandemic in western, supposedly monogamy-only society, to the detriment of the children and the women. Most modern churches have whole ministries for divorced people. If you want to talk about an abomination, let us discuss that travesty. And you seriously expect an intelligent, studied believer to believe that Yahweh prohibits plural marriage, when He has given such explicit instructions for its conduct, and in fact represents Himself in allegory as a polygamous husband, but He countenances people to marry and divorce several times during their lives, like it was just a trial situation? Are you truly serious sister? And you have the unbelievable nerve to call me brain-washed and in sin. I once again most urgently require your proof, and your feelings are totally irrelevant, for as we have profoundly demonstrated, your feelings just do not line up with the truth of scripture.
In conclusion, let us summarize what those who are intelligent and honest enough have learned today. We have learned that is it a serious and salvation-threatening sin to falsely charge another member of the Body of unsubstantiated sin. We have clearly defined what biblical adultery is. We have elucidated on the scriptural stance regarding marriage and some of the differences between the roles of women and men in marriage, though by no means exhaustively. This is a work that could cover volumes and is one of the deeper mysteries in scripture but well worth the contemplation and study. Lastly, we have pondered the folly of making assumptions about people we do not know and discernments without ethical study. I say again, as I advised in my first response to you, sister, a great deal of study and aligning of attitude with scriptural mores is called for in your case. Now I regretfully submit, you must also add repentance to your cache of remedial tasks, for you have unjustly accused a devout and devoted family of grievous sin without validation and I fear you are in significant spiritual jeopardy, besides just looking plain stupid. I will pray that you open your eyes to the truth of Yahweh's word and your arrogant and haughty ignorance is replaced with His grace and truth. This I humbly pray for you.
In His Love
In His Service
P.S. Bye the bye, I would be interested to hear your definition of mindless or brainwashed, since my husband has encouraged any studies I have ever undertaken and even published findings of mine that he has not always totally agreed with. The only requirements he places are for ethical research and a Christian demeanor. That is more than I have gotten from what you would consider 'real' Christians, and certainly not a characteristic I would think a brainwasher would possess, so once again you show your ignorance of reality in this assertion.
Response to Arrogance
Dear Justice (as you so arrogantly call yourself),
Forbid marriage??? Ah come on you know better then that!!! No one has forbid marriage for you or your so-called family. If so we would not be here today. You have the twist ability too. You think your mission is to set people straight about polygamy. What about my second email did you read it??? I researched your site and found even more that astonished me!!! At the risk of repeating myself --- Suszana, lets talk about your husband's first marriage since I hit on that with my second email which you so graciously left out ... One failed marriage proves your husband can not promise a good and successful marriage for you or any other of his so-called wives.
You have finally made an assertion that I can agree with. I do not think that we can have a discourse that would be of any profit to either of us, but since you opened the lines of communication and have made so many errors, both of scriptural interpretation and attitude, I feel led to make one more attempt to help you see your error before I shake the dust, as you so aptly put it.
I will answer your third missive in its entirety and just for your information, the earlier responses and your emails are published in their entirety on my homepage and our HEM site. I have nothing to fear from you or any of your invective as my beliefs are firmly rooted in scripture and refutation of your error is incredibly simple. You will find that the only thing I have omitted from your emails in identifying information about you. That, dear sister, is called ethics.
Again I will answer your email piece by piece to illustrate the hypocrisy and ignorance your proud attitude has led you to. Let us begin, shall we? You said:
First of all, of course you are forbidding marriage, or would like to anyway. That was the motivation for your first communication. That is not difficult for anyone to see that can think logically. For your information, I have read and responded to your second email before you sent the third. I am of the custom of studying and thinking before I respond to something controversial, a habit you might consider emulating, dear sister, to save yourself much embarrassment. Your reference to my family and sister-wives as 'so-called' evidences your refusal to accept the validity of my family and our marriage. Intolerance is hardly what I would identify as a gift or a fruit of the Spirit, but we will address that issue later. As for twisting ability, we will see in the end who is twisting what.
Also in your own writings you said your husband said the Holy Spirit is a woman ... I say prove it!!! This only proves how far fetched your husband reasoning is when it comes to the scriptures!!!
As for Suszana, she left when she turned her back on her Christian beliefs and followed an adulterous relationship into a New Age cult. The divorce was her doing, and Stanisław still prays for a reconciliation and we are all prepared to welcome her back to the family if the time should come that she desires to come back. That is a level of commitment and grace that I doubt you know anyone capable of but that is the spiritual calibre of the man you keep denying my marriage to. As opposed to your monogamy-only culture, where one in two marriages end in divorce, we believe that a marriage covenant is binding for life and are led by the example of Yah'shua (Jesus) in grace and forgiveness when one errs and offers genuine repentance. Further, we do not turn against our family members no matter how much we may be upset by what they have done in their error. That is a quality sadly lacking in most modern Christians but it is alive and well in this 'scripture twisting, so-called family'. Suszana's departure had nothing to do with the polygamy issue, but with her own falling away from her faith, and that is all I will address that issue, as further is none of your business.
As for the quality of our marriage, again you speak in ignorance of the reality of our marriage, for we have a loving and devout marriage where Christ rules our home and we submit to our husband's righteous authority as instructed by scripture. Our children are happy, healthy and innocent. Further, if for some reason one of us has to be away from our children, we do not have to resort to baby sitters or child care facilities that may or may not take good care of them, for we know at all times that they are with family members who love them as much as we do. I wonder if you can say the same for your four children. I seriously doubt it. We are encouraged in our faith and in our intellectual pursuits, and our husband guides us spiritually as well. He, however, does not think for us, he just guides us to the resources we need to obtain information for ourselves when we need it. So, you see, dear sister, the first part of your letter is once again, thoroughly dismantled so let us move on, shall we? You said:
If you will read more carefully, I said that Stanisław postulated that the Holy Spirit is ALMOST certainly female, and there is good reason to think that this may be so, but I will reiterate, that is another topic for another discussion and only serves to divert attention from the main topic of this discussion in a futile attempt to damage our credibility. You see, sister, our credibility has been established by a preponderance of scriptural evidence and does not rest on our own merits but on the word of Yahweh, so we are not so easily discredited by baseless accusations. If you would like to open a separate dialogue on the character of the Holy Spirit we can do so but I will not address it here as it is not the same issue.
Not to mention your belief in him by saying something similar to I think he is the most intelligent man I have ever meet. Then you wonder why I question you being 'brain washed or mindless'.
Now, to continue. You said:
For your information, I do consider my husband one of the smartest men I ever met. He holds a baccalaureate degree and several advanced degrees from one of the most prestigious universities in the world that most people cannot even pass the examinations to get into and has spent his life in search of knowledge and understanding, not only in matters theological but in the sciences and literature as well. Of course, having married at fourteen years of age, you likely don't know many people who have completed high school much less have such distinguished scholarship so I suppose that I must extend some grace to your lack of understanding of that accomplishment.
You don't know anything about me I probably know more about you if nothing else from your own writings and your site. Therefore you don't know my fears but to set the record straight your life style DOES NOT scare me in the least. I have been married since the age of 14 to the same wonderful man for 29 years. Our love has produced four beautiful children with the same Dad and Mom with NO confusion for the children. Do I know how to make a marriage happy and work ... you bet. Do I need another woman to help me out ... NO!!! Does my husband need another man to help him out ... NO!!! What does bothers me is the souls that might be lead astray because your false or misleading interpretation of the Bible. Since you posted my first email on your site and not the second and probably not this one I may have to start my own site to post the rest. Oh by the way --- The only FEAR I have is of GOD!!!
Actually, a great deal can be determined by your attitude, confrontational bearing, and haughty egotism. There are sound scientific deductions that can be made as well as some spiritual conclusions that can be drawn. For your information, sister, none of us in my marriage 'need' anyone else to help us make our marriage work. We all have unique gifts and any one of us would have been quite enough for our husband. We don't think along those lines much because we are not quite selfish enough to feel threatened just because the members of our family love the other members of our family. We are profoundly blessed by the abundance of love in our home and pray for all our Christian brothers and sisters to live in such a loving environment. It is sad that your fear and selfishness so blind you to the truth of scripture and to your own error that not only would you place yourself in such spiritual jeopardy but you would deny good Christian women a godly and devout husband just because of your own fallacious views and inability to put your selfish fears aside to assess the truth realistically. Sister, do I need to point out to you the preponderance of scripture enjoining us to put self aside and strive to serve and love others? How about the commandments to love our neighbors as ourselves? Not to mention the descriptions of selfless, loving and large families described throughout the bible? Your attitude is one we have contended with many, many times. Jealousy and fear that it really might be sanctioned by Elohim (God), because to accept that it might be sanctioned would be to accept that you might someday be called into it and you would rather a Christian sister called to join your family be alone without the covering of a devout husband than have to give up ownership of him. Shame on you. We do not say everyone is called to live polygamously. In fact, very few are qualified to live such a spiritually demanding life but for those who are the rewards are immense and such is thoroughly established in scripture as I will show in a bit. First, let us carry on with the response to your third letter.
Let me tell you what the gift of discerning feels like ... It can sometimes start out with tears but not tears of sadness but tears of joy. Like your cup runs over with happiness. When someone testifies, sings, preaches, the invitation given and other activities your portion of the Spirit can discerns theirs. This feels like a mild current of electricity that sometimes starts at the tip of your head to the end of your toes. At other times it maybe just in your legs or one side of your body. If discerning is really strong you can have a coolness that is peaceful but refreshing that surrounds the heart/chest area that accompanies the above. This is evidence to me that the Holy Spirit is a witness to the fact that Jesus and the power/gifts thereof are very REAL!!! I don't question my ability in the LORD but I am questioning yours!!!
Congratulations dear. You have just become a Mormon, because the way you describe the action of the Holy Spirit is almost exactly what Joseph Smith describes in section 9, verse 8 of the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants. To wit:
The Bible presents monogamy as the divine ideal. The creator made marriage as a union between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN (Gen. 2:18-24)
24: Therefore shall A MAN leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and they shall be one flesh.
Jesus said in (Matt. 19:4-6)
4: And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read that he who made them at the beginning, made them male and female:
5: And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his WIFE, and they (TWO) shall be one flesh?
6: Wherefore, they are no more (TWO), but one flesh. What therefore, God has joined together, let not man put asunder.
(Matt. 19:7-12) 7: They said unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put HER away
"But behold I say unto you, that you must study it in your own mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore you shall feel it is right" (D&C 9:8).
That is what the Mormon canons have to say about such feelings, tinglings and sensations. It is strange to hear a Christian espouse such things. I suppose you are also one of those people who believe that the Holy Spirit also makes grown people crawl around on the floor and bark like dogs, laugh uncontrollably, or make people writhe around on the floor and hiss like snakes. Or perhaps you think the Holy Spirit would allow Himself/Herself to be thrown around like a beach ball? Christendom is rife with some strange notions about the character and characteristics of the Spirit and you find it strange to posit that She might be female? That is the least outrageous of some of the newer ideas I have heard lately and one of the most universally rejected. Let us see if scripture will give us a little insight into the character of the Holy Spirit. This is not to address the gender question, which is open to interpretation and hence not a salvational issue, but to address the workings of the Spirit as described in scripture which can indeed be a salvational issue.
1 Cor 14:32-33, NIV
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For Elohim (God) is not an Elohim (God) of disorder but of peace.
1 Cor 14:40, NIV
But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Col 2:8-9, NASB
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col 3:12-15, NASB
And so, as those who have been chosen of Elohim (God), holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Master forgave you, so also should you. And beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
2 Cor 11:14-15, NASB
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds.
Gal 5:22-23, NASB
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
There are several principles here that would be beneficial for you to ponder, sister 'justice'. First, that Yahweh is orderly. He is not the author of chaos and confusion, and if He is not the author of it, then guess who is. The Spirit of Yahweh would not be chaotic and disordered, as She is one with Yahweh, that is, uniplural. I suppose you will want to contend that as well, and if so then just say the word. As I attempted to inform you in my last message, that is a huge subject as well, not to mention a fascinating study but I doubt that it is the one you have the spiritual honesty or scholarly ability to pursue at present. However, I would be glad to launch a study forum with you should my assessment be in error. Also note what the fruits of the Spirit are dear sister, and answer for yourself the question of how well your three messages have been evidencing that Spirit. And if not, exactly which spirit do you think is bringing you such discernment? Unlike you I will not postulate, I simply pose the question since the evidences of such spirit are not quite what the Bible describes. As for you questioning my ability in Yahweh, fortunately your assessment is one that I need not give a second thought as it is completely valueless and without scriptural substantiation. As the saying goes, I care not how people judge me but how Yahweh judges and as of now, scripturally, the only thing I will likely have to repent of is the anger I have allowed your hypocrisy and ignorance engender in me to rob me of Christ's peace. You may be sure that after this response that will not be allowed to happen again. Let us now move on as I grow weary of wasting time covering the same territory over and over to no good purpose. I must needs be about my Father's business, and this is not it. You said:
Now listen carefully sister and I will try to make it simple for you. Originally there was one man and one woman created. Whether that was marriage in its infancy and plural marriage a more mature marriage or whether it was what was intended in the garden of Eden and needs changed after the Fall is open to interpretation but the literal and observable and provable truth is that plural marriage was established after the creation and the expulsion of man from the garden. The logic you are trying here is sloppy and unscriptural. Note in verse four, the plural pronoun 'them' is used and the singular male and female is used. That means exactly nothing sister. I will illustrate further. In the last verse, the writ of divorcement given to her was singular as divorce is a singular event and, though Yahweh forbid it ever happen, would not mean that the man would be divorcing all his wives with one writ of divorcement as he would need one for each. Means nothing as far as establishing a text for monogamy and there is no way to honestly make it do that. A man cannot be one flesh with more than one woman!?
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5-6, Ephesians 5:31, Mark 10:8)
· "What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh." (1 Corinthians 6:16)
- How do you become one flesh with someone?
to8: He saith unto them, Moses, because of the HARDNESS OF YOUR HEARTS, permitted you put away your wives, BUT FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO.
9: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away HIS WIFE, except it be for fornication, and SHALL MARRY ANOTHER, COMMITTETH ADULTERY: and whosoever marrieth HER who is put away DOTH COMMIT ADULTERY.
10: His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his WIFE, it is not good to marry.
11: But he said unto them, All MEN cannot receive this saying, except they to whom it is given.
VERSE #12 EXPLAINS THAT SOME MEN CHOSE NOT TO MARRY BECAUSE THEY ARE EUNUCHS WHICH MEANS EMASCULATED BY CASTRATION: THEY WERE EITHER BORN EUNUCHS OR CASTRATED BY MEN OR CHOSE TO BE EUNUCHS (NOT TO MARRY) FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN SAKE:
12: For there are some eunuchs, who were born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men: AND THERE ARE EUNUCHS, WHO MADE THEMSELVES EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN'S SAKE. He that is able to receive it let him receive it.
Apparently polygamy like divorce, was tolerated because OF THE HARDNESS OF PEOPLE'S HEARTS: (MATT. 19:8).
AFTER THE TIME OF MOSES, POLYGAMY CONTINUED TO BE PRACTICED, ESPECIALLY BY WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS, SUCH AS GIDEON, ELKANAH, SAUL, AND DAVID (JUD. 8:28-30: 1 SAM. 5:13: 1 KIN. 11:3). BUT THE MOST FAMOUS POLYGAMIST IN THE BIBLE WAS KING SOLOMON: "AND HE HAD SEVEN HUNDRED WIVES, PRINCESSES, AND THREE HUNDRED CONCUBINES: AND HIS WIVES TURNED AWAY HIS HEART (1 KIN. 11:3). THE CRITICISM OF POLYGAMY EXPRESSED IN DEUTERONOMY 17:17 IS NOT SURPRISING: NOTICE --- THE IDEAL KING WHOM ISRAEL'S OBEDIENCE CAN BE RIGHTLY GIVEN SHALL NOT "MULTIPLY WIVES FOR HIMSELF, LEST HIS HEART TURN AWAY."!!! --- (THIS DID NOT MEAN TO ADD TO HIS CURRENT WIVES). HARDNESS OF HIS/YOUR HEART APPEARS IN SEVERAL PLACES: ALSO LEST HIS HEART TURN AWAY --- FROM WHAT??? HARDNESS AND TURNED FROM GOD!!! JESUS REFERRED BACK TO THE BEGINNING WHEN TALKING ABOUT MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN (GEN. 2:18-24). THINK ABOUT IT REAL CAREFUL. WHO ARE YOU TO ARGUE WITH OR CHANGE THE WORDS OF CHRIST???
- Does 1 Corinthians 6:16 not apply to already married men?
- Can a man be one flesh with both his wife and the harlot?
- Can a man be one flesh with both his first wife and second wife?
Sexual intercourse joins a man and a woman as one flesh, whether they are married or in sin. 1 Corinthians 6:16 shows that a man, married or not, can be one flesh with a harlot. If married the man is not only one flesh with his wife, but also with the harlot. Therefore, with simple reasoning, we see that man can indeed be one flesh with more than one woman. "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." (1 Corinthians 6:17) To add to this, this doesn't mean he is married to the prostitute as in 1 Corinthians 6:16. For marriage you need a covenant and consummation.
The man who penned Genesis and the words "the two shall be one flesh" was Moses. Moses himself had two wives, Zipporah the Midianite, as shown in Exodus 2:16-21, and an Ethiopian wife as shown in Numbers 12:1.
"The Bible always uses the singular "wife", not the plural wives!"
· "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, …" (Deuteronomy 22:13)
· "If a man have two wives, …" (Deuteronomy 21:15)
· "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives (Greek gune): but from the beginning it was not so." (Matthew 19:8)
· "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife (Greek gune) :" (Matthew 1:24)
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife (Hebrew ishshah): and they shall be one flesh." (Genesis 2:24)
· "And Lamech took unto him two wives (Hebrew ishshah): the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah." (Genesis 4:19)
- In Moses' day, if a man was a polygamist, did he not have to follow Deuteronomy 22:13-30, because they only used the word "wife"?
- In Matthew 19:8, the Greek gune is translated as wives and in Matthew 1:24 it is translated as wife, does that mean gune can mean either wife or wives?
- In Genesis 2:24, the Hebrew ishshah is translated as wife and in Genesis 4:19 it is translated as wives, does that mean that ishshah can mean either wife or wives?
In the Mosaic Law, when "wife" is used, those laws could apply to monogamy or polygamy and when "wives" is used, those laws only apply to polygamy.
In the both the Old Testament and the New Testament the same Hebrew and Greek words are used to denote both wife and wives.
Well, then those issues are disposed of scripturally. Let's move on then. You said:
Well I will answer your last question first before I dismantle your errors in this section. It is not, nor has it ever been, the word of Yahweh that I was arguing with, but with your erroneous interpretation and baseless vilefication, as I have unquestionably shown through accurate quoting of scriptures.
YOUR SITE YOU USE COR. 7:10-11 AND STATE "RATHER HE HAS REMARRIED OR NOT" ALSO DEUTERONOMY 22: 28-29 "WHETHER HE IS MARRIED OR NOT" AMONG MANY MORE ADDED WORDS TO GOD'S SCRIPTURE. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU ADD TO OR TAKE AWAY FROM GOD'S WORD??? THEREFORE I CHARGE YOU WITH SLANDER OF GOD'S WORD...
I KNOW THIS WILL NOT HELP BECAUSE OF THE HARDNESS OF YOUR HEART BUT WHAT KIND OF CHRISTIAN WOULD I BE IF I HAD NOT TRIED??? I HAVE BEEN ADVISED TO DUST MY FEET AND TURN THIS OVER TO GOD.
GOD BLESS! MAY YOU FIND THE TRUE PATH!!!
Now, let us once again address the tendency you have to state facts not in evidence. You said, "Apparently polygamy like divorce, was tolerated because OF THE HARDNESS OF PEOPLE'S HEARTS: " Where precisely did you come up with that? Was that an example of your much bragged about discernment? Here is a salient fact for you. The word polygamy, along with the word monogamy, is never mentioned in the bible. That is correct, sister. Not once. Therefore, that assertion, once again, is only an example of your own emotional bias and, scripturally, proof of nothing. But then, that is the history of this communication.
Now let us address King Solomon. He had a thousand wives and concubines. Of course that was ridiculous but, again, in no way is that proof text proving any prohibition against more than one wife. Any simpleton can see that there is a great deal of difference between three or four wives, say, and a thousand. This coupled with the fact that they were pagan, and indeed he was guilty of multiplying wives.
As far as whether or not it meant for him to add wives, I have one thing to say and one piece of scripture to share with you. Simple semantics will demonstrate that there is a vast difference between the words 'add' and 'multiply'. A man is not to multiply wives, that is true. But that is not the same as adding wives. The limiting factor, as is shown is scripture, is the man's ability to provide for his wives, spiritually, physically, temporally, and financially. There is no specific number, not even one dear sister, and I have yet to see a scripture to challenge that statement, from you or anyone else.
If you will look at 2nd Samuel chapter 12, verse 8, you will see that Yahweh gave David Saul's wives and even stated that He would have given Him more were that not enough. What David was rebuked for, and what he had to repent of, was adultery against another man's wife, and the subsequent murder of that man. In no way can this be taken to mean that he repented of polygamy or that Yahweh required him to, seeing as Yahweh is the one who gave him his wives in the first place!
Now let us finish this up and I will conclude this communication. You said:
Actually, the parenthetical remarks that you are in such an uproar are so obviously just put in to emphasize that the scripture made no distinction as to whether he was married or not in their instruction, but in the interest of clarity, you are right, I should have added (emphasis mine). It was so obvious I did not see the need to spell it out, but procedurally you are correct in pointing this out. Not that I was adding to scripture, but that I should have made it plain that the parenthetical comments were just that. So you see, you have charged slander and sin, and have in no way corroborated it or substantiated it. Look carefully sister at your scriptures and I urge you to repent before Yahweh for slandering falsely one of the Body, not for me or my family for we have already freely forgiven you. Our forgiveness, however, means nothing for it is Yahweh that will judge you. I will leave you with one last scripture verse and if nothing else I have said touches you I pray this verse will speak to you.
Gal 5:14-15, NASB
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
Take care, sister, for your own spiritual integrity and I pray that Yahweh leads you to the truth of scripture and leads you out of your folly before it is too late. Shalom.
Postscript (2016) - Encounters like this one, though a necessary part of our initial learning experience, convinced us early on that debating with such people is utterly pointless because they weren't listening and didn't want to listen. This is true not only of the polygamy question but of any theological or practical issue. Tribalism (aka denominationalism) and traditionalism in religion, as in politics, defines the majority, and they will not be deterred. Rather, they will consider themselves all the more correct, a psychological condition known as 'cognative dissonance'. This is, in part, the fault of our educational systems which no longer teach people to think or reason but to simply regurgitate what has been spoon-fed them. It takes courage and determination to break out of this essentially brainwashing system. Christian/ Messianic polygamists are simply one group of believers who have challenged the status quo...and know how to properly and thoroughly back their claims up with Scripture (SBSK).
First created on 14 April 2002
Updated on 10 August 2016
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