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    The Truth About
    Homosexuality & Lesbianism


    Please carefully study the disclaimer before reading this article

    Q. From the earliest days of the work of the New Covenant we have been confronted with the problem of homosexuality and lesbianism. We know that there are literally millions of desperate people afflicted with this problem. Why, if homosexuality is wrong, have so few been healed? What can we do to help them?

    A. NCAY was established by Yahweh to not only restore true Christianity but to help those who have not been able to find help in the traditional Churches and Messianic Assemblies. Homosexuals and lesbians are one such group of people. Many concerned Christian people, groups and churches have established ministries to reach out to this long neglected segment of society. Most of them have focused on the very real need to simply accept homosexuals as people and to treat them as such. For too long they have been brushed under the carpet, isolated and stigmatised as though they bore some infectious disease like leprosy.

    Q. But there have been many different responses, haven't there?

    A. Yes, and unfortunately most of them have been far from adequate, based as they are on ignorance of the root causes of homosexuality. You can't treat a problem unless you know what it actually is.

    Q. A problem?

    A. Homosexuality is a psychological issue with a cause and a cure. That is the first and most important point. It is not, as the secular world is trying to persuade us, a genetic condition over which the homosexual has no control and therefore has no responsibility. This is a terrible lie that actually does more harm to the homosexual than good. For a start, it robs him of all hope and he accepts what is pathological to be 'normal'. Once homosexuality is accepted as 'normal' it then spreads, and fast.

    Q. Are you saying that there are parallels between the homosexual condition and a physical disease?

    A. They are exactly parallel. Let's take malaria as an example. There was a time when the cause of malaria was completely unknown and doctors were helpless to administer to its victims. The first breakthrough came in 1893 when Sir Ronald Ross, a young doctor serving in India, discovered that malaria was transmitted by mosquitoes. He realised that the only way to control malaria was to destroy the mosquitoes' natural habitat. Marshes, drains, and pools where mosquitoes laid their eggs were drained and filled, or else paraffin was poured on the water to kill the eggs and grubs.

    Homosexuality is spread in two ways. Firstly, by sexual experimentation. Secondly, by acceptance that it is 'normal'.

    Q. Are you saying that the laws banning homosexuality in the past were right?

    A. You can't 'ban' homosexuality no more than you can ban theft. But you can, and should ban homosexual acts. Similarly, you can't ban drug addiction but you can ban the use of drugs. Neither of these are the solution to the problem, which at root is spiritual, but you can at least contain the problem while you are dealing with it at heart.

    Q. But governments have tried to ban drugs for decades and completely failed....

    A. Yes, that's right, but let's not confuse two issues. The problem we are talking about -- whether homosexuality, narcotics, or a disease like malaria, is double-edged, and we must deal with it on two fronts simultaneously. I will deal with the root problem in a moment, but first let's deal with outward manifestations. You are agreed, I assume, that it would be foolish to legalise drugs and allow mosquitoes to multiply in an uncontrolled manner?

    Q. Yes, certainly. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't treat malaria patients or drug addicts...

    A. Correct. Treating the victims of malaria or drug abuse is of the highest priority but we must also ensure that we prevent others from catching malaria or having easy access to drugs. I wish people would see this clearly but when they are in love with sin, they do not want to know the truth. If you ask a homosexual if it is a good thing to develop anti-toxins against poisonous snake bites he will of course say, 'yes'. If you ask him whether it is good to empty a basket-load of poisonous snakes into a little child's room he will of course say, 'no'. Every sane person would be agreed on these questions. And yet a totally contrary response would be given today in western liberal countries if you asked whether acts of homosexuality should be allowed.

    Q. But why?

    A. Because there is hardly a soul alive who knows what homosexuality is. For centuries it has been taboo -- something not to be discussed. Following the sexual revolution of the 1960's it is not only discussed but now accepted and promoted as an 'alternative lifestyle'. But still they don't understand the causes.

    I know of only two people who understand what the cause of homosexuality -- maybe there are more -- but these two are the only ones I am aware of. I have read hundreds of articles and books about homosexuality written by Christians as well as non-Christians and none fully understand the root causes.

    Dr.Ross discovered how malaria was spread because he had a microscope. NCAY has been given a spiritual microscope and we know the root cause of homosexuality and we know how to treat it. However, you cannot eradicate a homosexual as you would a mosquito! Homosexuals are human beings -- our brothers and sisters -- and if they are to be healed, they must voluntarily co-operate.

    Q. In what way?

    A. Firstly, they must understand that homosexuality is not normal. They must take Elohim (God) at His word. They must not presume to dictate to the Creator of the Universe or try to 're-interpret' scripture to fit in with their own pre-conceptions. The act of homosexuality....and notice that I stress the word 'act' here -- is sin, and it is sin which leads to spiritual death. Homosexuality is not itself a sin, though the decisions which led a person to become a homosexual may be sinful. But usually a homosexual doesn't know what led to his homosexuality, or has otherwise forgotten them because of painful memories, and therefore in his ignorance he cannot be sinful in this regard.

    Q. Let me get this straight, then. Homosexuality is not a sin in itself.

    A. Correct.

    Q. But sexual contact between homosexuals is?

    A. Yes.

    Q. And the acts which lead to a person committing homosexuality are sin if the person understands what those actions are?

    A. A person is not judged a sinner until he knows that a matter is wrong. The Torah (Law) of Elohim (God), or the Mitzvot (Commandments), have been given to us by Yahweh to convict us of sin. In our ignorance of theTorah (Law) we cannot be judged by the Torah (Law) though we should not forget that for the born-again believer the Torah (Law) is supposed to be written within our hearts -- we have a conscience. However, this conscience can be damaged, as I have explained elsewhere, and therefore is not always a reliable guide.

    Q. You mean, our consciences can be 'reprogrammed', as it were?

    A. Yes. We are born with a pure conscience but our response to moral acts of unrighteousness must be re-enforced externally, as well as our response to acts of righteousness. We have, as it were, a pure foundation -- a gift from Elohim (God) at birth -- but wrong upbringing can lead to this inner light of emet (truth) being obscured, disfigured, or even totally suppressed. This means that we must not ultimately base our moral philosophy on feelings but on Law (see, The Teeth of the Dragon: The Problems of Feelings and Fear).

    Q. Could you state the Law for us?

    A. The Law is unambiguous in both parts of the Bible. Under the Law of Moses in the theocratic society of Israel, homosexual acts were punished by execution (Lev.18:22-27; 20:13,15; Deut.23:17). The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, which so closely reflects our day and age, was promiscuous homosexuality (Gen.18:20-22; 13:13; 19:4-9). Whole cities in the United States have a homosexual majority today.

    Q. Do you mean they will meet a fate similar to Sodom and Gomorrah?

    A. If they don't repent, without a doubt. And we know from prophecy that many of these cities will be destroyed by fire in the last day.

    Q. Are you absolutely sure?

    A. Absolutely. Yahweh has spoken this prophetic Davar (Word) and it will come to pass.

    Q. You said that homosexual action was punished by death in the Old Covenant. What would you say to the homosexual who says that the Tanakh (Old Testament) was crude and uncaring?

    A. That is always the response of sinners to Yahweh's Torah (Law), which is righteous and qadosh (holy, set-apart), because Elohim (God) is righteous and qadosh (holy, set-apart). How dare any fallible human being presume to dictate morals to the Almighty Creator! But the Torah (Law) was not strict with homosexual practitioners alone. Promiscuous heterosexuals, and especially adulterers, faced the same punishment of death.

    It is not uncommon for promiscuous homosexuals and heterosexuals to accuse the Tanakh (Old Testament) of being 'primitive'. Because they will not repent or put themselves under Yahweh's Torah (Law) they instead try to explain it away. Most unrepentant sinners subscribe to the liberal-New Age view of sacred history which maintains that mankind has 'evolved' from a primitive and brutal view of the world towards a more 'enlightened' and 'loving' one. You will not be surprised to find that most non-atheistic homosexuals either end up in liberal Christian Churches or in the New Age Movement where their behaviour is accepted.

    May I remind you that Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) endorsed the Tanakh (Old Testament) throughout His ministry. Yes, the New Agers and liberals affirm a belief in the 'enlightened' teachings of Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) -- that is, they accept one part of His ministry but not the other. In truth, they do not believe in the Yah'shua (Jesus) of the Bible -- they believe only what that want to believe.

    Liberals and New Agers will find no comfort in the Messianic Scriptures (New Testament). The apostles, who taught what their Master had taught them, did not compromise with the emet (truth), because they knew that compromise led to spiritual death.

    I want everyone to mark the truth carefully and face it honestly -- there is no simcha (joy) or happiness in a lie. The emet (truth) stands, and it is this (let me quote some New Testament passages for you):

      "Yes, these torot (laws) are made to identify as sinners all who are immoral and impure: homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, and all others who do things that contradict the glorious Besorah (Good News, Gospel) of our blessed Elohim (God), whose messenger I [Paul] am" (1 Timothy 1:10-11, Living Bible; also see 1 Corinthians 5:9-10)).

      "And don't forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighbouring towns, all full of lust of every kind, including lust of men for other men. Those cities were destroyed by fire and continue to be a warning to us that there is a hell in which sinners are punished" (Jude 7, Living Bible).

    Q. If I were a homosexual hearing these things I would give up in despair...

    A. Yes, and not just homosexuals. For all men and women are under condemnation because all are impure and defiled in some way. That is why there is no salvation apart from Messiah who forgives us, heals us, and washes us clean if we acknowledge our sins, feel godly sorrow for them, and forsake them.

    Q. But thousands of homosexuals have believed these promises and not found healing...

    A. Yes, Christians have been good at pointing out the Torah (Law) and have been sincere in wanting to help and love their brothers and sisters who are homosexuals and lesbians but they have lacked the keys. Dr.Ross was not the first doctor to feel compassion for sufferers of malaria -- hundreds before him desired to help the victims of this monstrous disease (a disease which I've had myself, incidentally). Shouldn't this teach us a lesson?

    Q. ...that love on its own is not enough. But what more is needed?

    A. If you were a homosexual, you would be on the path to healing, as many have been! Recognition that homosexuality is abnormal, that acts of homosexuality (that is, fornication and adultery, even between so-called 'married' homosexuals) is sinful, is the first and most important step. We must begin here. So long as there is internal resistance to these truths the homosexual is doomed to remain the way he is. But now let us get to the core, let us understand what homosexuality is, and what the cure is.

    Q. So you really believe that homosexuals can become normal heterosexuals?

    A. More than that, I know they can. But the homosexual must first of all be patient and understand. What I have to say will not necessarily be readily accepted, but like an antitoxin working on a poison, the effects can be traumatic. And this is the first thing I have to say to the homosexual: if he is afraid of pain, I can't help him.

    Q. Do you mean there are no instantaneous cures?

    A. For the vast majority, no. I do know of homosexuals who have instantly been cured but then the cause of their homosexuality has been rather unusual. I will, if I may, look at them separately afterwards, as they are special cases.

    But let's deal with your 'average' homosexual. The first key I wish to give is this, and it's very important: The homosexual act is not a sexual one.

    Q. But I thought that 'act of homosexuality' was two men having sex with each other?

    A. Yes, the 'act of homosexuality' is two men having sexual relations with each other in a physical sense but psychologically/spiritually it is not sex at all. The homosexual act is based on the denial of real sexuality. It is an acting out symbolically through sex of a need for ahavah (love).

    Q. Do you mean then that a homosexual does not experience sex as heterosexuals might?

    A. Yes. The homosexual act is purely physical or sensual sex. It lacks the psychological and spiritual dimensions altogether. And this is the second key: A truly sexual person is heterosexual. That means, there is absolutely no such thing as 'homosexual sex'. It doesn't exist. And why doesn't it exist? Because the homosexual has eroticised his need so that he appears to be highly sexed. If you take away his sexual fix -- take away his lover -- he is like a drug addict without his connection. Once a homosexual falls into sexual sin by committing the sexual act, he is no different from the heroin addict. He can't control himself! Without his lover, he remains in the root pain of his homosexuality. It is physical sex which drains off his pain.

    Q. Do you mean that sex is a bit like alcohol which numbs pain?

    A. Exactly. Sex is merely a sedative, and because it seems to take away the pain, it becomes compulsive. But sex is not subconsciously the homosexual's goal -- his goal, though he doesn't always know it, is ahavah (love).

    Homosexuals suffer from a condition called by psychologists, neurosis.

    Q. What is that?

    A. Neurosis is a behaviour pattern showing an inability to take a rationally objective view of life. A person suffering from neurosis is called a neurotic. Neurotics show an undue adherence to an unrealistic idea of things.

    Q. Many would say that the psychologists are the neurotics!

    A. In some cases they may well be. As far as we are concerned, though, the only reality and emet (truth) is the Davar Elohim (Word of God), because Elohim (God) is the author of reality. From the beginning then it is important that we are understood as basing our reality on what Elohim (God) has revealed in the Scriptures. Everything else is illusion.

    Q. I imagine that homosexuals will be enraged to be told they are neurotics.

    A. No doubt, but if they're honest they'll come to the same emet (truth) that we have. I have never met a relaxed homosexual. They will say that they are tense because heterosexuals are judging them, which is usually true. But we, as Messianic Evangelicals, are not judging them. To us they are Elohim's (God's) children. What we judge is their condition, just as we would judge the spiritual condition of a heterosexual. They may not believe that, but then that is a typical symptom of neurosis. If you had malaria and I judged you as having a disease that needed treatment, you would be very foolish if you took that as a personal attack. We don't talk of people who have malaria as being 'malarians' and we really oughtn't talk of people who have homosexuality as being 'homosexuals'. But we are stuck with the label so we must regrettably use it.

    The homosexual is without doubt the tensest of neurotics because of how far he has been made to go from his real self. This tension can drive him to alcohol, drugs, and compulsive sex, and yet he will find that these outlets are not enough. Many homosexuals report psychosomatic complaints. Others are very violent which is the result of self-denial. They experience violent swings in mood which can be triggered off by the slightest thing. Homosexuals are angry people. When a person cannot be what he is, he is angry.

    Q. So how would you define homosexuality?

    A. Homosexuality is any act between two people which is experienced as though it were occurring between members of the same sex. If a man makes love to a woman but is totally involved in it with a fantasy about men, I would call that experience homosexual. The motions one goes through are less critical than the internal situation. When a person makes love to a member of his own sex, it means that he is more totally involved in the symbolic behaviour. There is no split or fragmented part of him that drives him to hold on to heterosexuality; he has given up the battle and become more completely what he is not.

    Q. I don't understand. Are you then saying that it is better for the homosexual to become 'what he is' in order not to be fragmented?

    A. No, not at all. Fragmentation is, of course, not good, for we need to be whole, but it is better than slipping into total illusion. The latter simply makes solving the problem more difficult.

    My point is that we must deal with inner realities and see past external behaviour patterns, even if understanding external behaviour patterns is important. There are, for example, men and women who have homosexual marriages but do not recognise the fact. An effeminate man selects a masculine woman for a mate -- he may, as one patient has reported, prefer to be on the bottom in sex, rationalising that he is more comfortable that way -- without once recognising that he is essentially having sex with a man. There is some kind of special radar that drives these people to find each other. The man for an unconscious need for a loving father, yet too fearful of admitting to homosexual impulses, will become involved with a mannish woman instead. He will relate to those masculine aspects of her so that she will be the mechanic around the house, handle the finances, drive the car, and so on. The point is, when you are neurotic, you can make anyone into something he is not. Thus, a man can make a woman into a man in his mind in the same way that he makes a policeman into his father or a teacher into his mother. It is the need which is uppermost.

    Q. Does that mean it is better to fantasise than to actually carry out the act of homosexuality?

    A. Absolutely. Someone who must fantasise during sex is closer to his feelings than someone who lives out his fantasy. This is true not just for homosexuality but for a host of other sex-related problems. Fantasy at least connotes a mental recognition of a need -- more correctly, a recognition of a symbol of the need. Living it out means total suppression of the need and its symbols.

    Q. So what is the first thing a practicing homosexual must do?

    A. There is no doubt, he must become celibate. Until he does so, there is nothing that can be done for him. A practicing homosexual cannot be healed any more than a drug addict can be who refuses to give up drugs.

    Q. So why don't they quit sex? What's stopping them?

    A. Ask an alcoholic or a compulsive smoker why they can't give up alcohol or smoking. They enjoy it, even if it is killing them. They are running away...running away from reality and responsibility. Really, the only way to help a homosexual be cured of his homosexuality is by first making him see how selfish he is to others. He must see the moral dimension. The homosexual must understand that each time he has sex with another man he is leading not only himself to further ruination but the other man or men too. And this on both the spiritual and physical plane, for you will know of the terrible risk of AIDS.

    They need the perspective of Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ). They need to see that they have a responsibility towards others and to not keep feeling so sorry for themselves. No-one denies their suffering but they must come to an understanding that actually they are, in the vast majority of cases, the authors of their own suffering, just like the sexually compulsive heterosexual, the alcoholic, the drug addict, or whoever. Too often homosexuals hide behind a persecution complex just as many third world nations are blaming their financial mismanagement on their former colonial rulers. Whereas it is true that homosexuals have been persecuted (and still are), and whilst it is true that the former colonial masters of many Third World nations are responsible for some of the mess of these nations, this is not the whole story. Homosexuals and immoral heterosexuals alike must stop using scape goats to ruin away from the emet (truth).

    Q. You're going to be very unpopular for saying this...

    A. Fortunately my motivation for living and serving my fellow man is not popularity. If it were, I would have immersed myself in the world. Physicians are rarely popular because their medicine hurts. The Saviour told the emet (truth) no matter how he rubbed up against people's pride. So must the Christian/Messianic. Or otherwise what is our ministry worth? The bona fide doctor usually bears the insults because he knows his cures are right (usually), just as we, who have received the knowledge of Elohim (God), know what is best for a homosexual.

    Q. But how can you, who have never experienced homosexuality, presume to say what they need?

    A. That's another scape goat. I've never had a broken leg but I know how to treat one because of what others have done. I have tested the mitzvot (commandments) of Elohim (God) so many times that I know that His Davar (Word) is absolutely reliable. You don't need to be a murderer to understand the mind of a murderer, or a thief to understand the mind of a thief. All you need is sensitivity and a close personal walk with the Master. I am a man but I understand women well. I have never been a woman but most women who know me will say that I usually understand their needs. Actually, some of the revelations we receive in NCAY come through what I call dream rôle-playing.

    Q. You mean, acting out the part of a murderer, for example?

    A. Something like that. How many times have you dreamed that you have done something terrible that you have never done in real life? In the dream world when you are asleep, fantasy appears to be reality. Hypnotists have proved that much. I have had many dreams where I have played various rôles and entered into the heart of that rôle. When I have woken up I have been absolutely shocked because I know in real life I would never do such things. Now whereas many dreams are the living out of subconscious impulses -- our real self -- which, given the opportunity manifest themselves into action, I also believe that Elohim (God) instructs us in dream situations to teach us what it is like to be like others.

    Q. Is that really possible?

    A. If you believe in the atonement, then it must be possible. Think what Yah'shua (Jesus) went through. The act of atonement was actually living through the filth and evil of every human mind and heart as though He were the sinner. He experienced every depravity, every murder, every lie, every imaginable wickedness and repented for them. He repented for sins He never committed. That's what the atonement is. He took our punishment by entering the very minds and hearts of every human being. Hard to understand? You bet it is. It is beyond our comprehension. But I can understand it just a little bit. Once, before I became a fully convicted Christian and was influenced by a false doctrine of one of the cults, I asked Elohim (God) to let me bear the sins of one of my friends so that I could help him.

    Q. Did He let you?

    A. Yes, he did. It was so awful that after one second I was begging Him to take the pain away. Praise Elohim (God) that He did! But I learned an important lesson in that experience -- many important lessons -- and one of them is that puny man cannot atone for even the sins of one man for one second!

    I have lived through many rôles in my dreams as Yahweh has taught me what various people go through. Some of the experiences have been so awful that on one occasion at least I just wanted to die -- I was filled with so much shame and guilt. I literally wanted the mountains to cover me, as the scriptures say. That is how awful sin is. And that is why we need a Saviour so much! Without Yah'shua (Jesus) we would have to live through all our wickedness in the presence of the pure and qadosh (holy, set-apart) Elohim (God) of the Universe.

    Now, let me tell you that no illusion is worth it. Never. I have lived through many illusions in my life. Even the temporary pleasures of numbing of pain eventually wear off. The homosexual can deny that his homosexuality is abnormal but the day is coming -- and I promise you it is coming -- when he must face it squarely. He simply won't be able to live the lie any longer. And I would not wish to be in his shoes for anything in the world, nor the shoes of any sinner denying the emet (truth).

    Q. Could you now tell us what the root cause of homosexuality is?

    A. Homosexuality derives from a number of different permutations of family interaction. A homosexual boy can have a weak father, a tyrannical father, or no father at all. What matters is that the boy has a need for a loving father. There is no reason to work through the specific relationships the boy had.

    Q. You mean, there's no need for him to relive all his homosexual relationships, to go back one by one until he comes to the root cause?

    A. No, not at all. I would suggest that in the vast majority of cases that is positively harmful. What must be reached in the homosexual is the need. It is the need that is being acted out in homosexuality.

    Much will depend on the child himself. If the child is naturally athletic, he may be the kind of rugged person the father wants. If he is weak and uncoordinated, he may be completely rejected because he didn't fit in with his father's needs. If his mother is a bit warmer, this child may become closer to her. If his mother is cold, the child may try desperately to be like his father. No one family constellation produces homosexuality.

    Q. We were always led to believe that the cause of homosexuality was an overbearing father...

    A. In some cases it is, but there may be other factors. The problem goes much deeper. There are many boys who have overbearing fathers who don't turn out as homosexuals. Yet overbearing fathers do certainly contribute to the feminization of their sons.

    A young boy with a brutal, drunken father may well turn against things masculine. Another boy with the same father may decide to be the kind of decent man his father wasn't. If a mother hates men, it may turn her daughter against men. If a mother is a hateful human being, it may turn her daughter against women. There is no formula which accounts for a specific neurosis. The child's inner reaction to what happened is what must be understood.

    Q. So, in a way, the child is responsible for the way it reacts?

    A. I'm afraid so, however hard and possibly uncaring that may sound. Even if the child is put under the most unbearable pressure imaginable, the way that child reacts is ultimately its own responsibility. Now for goodness sake don't understand me to be saying that because the child is responsible we should be cold and uncaring. Yah forbid! We must as believers show warmth, care, understanding, and envelop our brothers and sisters with an overflowing abundance of ahavah (love). But the fact nevertheless remains that even the victims of the most horrible abuses must accept responsibility for the way they react. This is another important key to the healing process that I will return to later.

    The child's resultant behaviour usually isn't a consciously thought-out decision. A slow accretion of experiences warp him into an image to fulfil the parent's repressed needs. What this means in practical terms is that he must be what his parents need him to be so as to make them (and thus himself) temporarily comfortable. If a mother cannot tolerate aggressiveness and she believes men to be sexual beasts, her attitude and behaviour will soon let the child know that it is not safe to be either aggressive or sexual.

    Q. But that's terrible...

    A. Yes, but it is happening all the time. One might say that it's almost 'normal' -- which goes to show just how abnormal and neurotic society is. Because the young child cannot understand that his father is a sadist or that his mother is a lesbian with a hatred for things male, he comes to believe that whatever he does naturally is wrong. He may deny more and more of his natural inclinations until one day he is totally introverted.

    Q. Is it possible, as many secularists claim, that Christians themselves are responsible for destroying their children by imposing draculean moral standards?

    A. That is a half truth. Yes, they are right to a certain extent. If you have a so-called Christian family which is so strict that a child is put in a straight-jacket, that child can be badly damaged inside.

    Q. Should we relax morals then???

    A. No, no, you're missing the point. Morals are essential - vital - to the individual's, and society's, health. But like so many things there is a dual need, what we in NCAY call variously the 'Judgment-Mercy Principle' or the 'Obedience-Love Principle'. The tyrrany of so much false Christianity is not the insistence on obedience to the mitzvot (commandments) but the lack of ahavah (love).

    Q. So the secularists are wrong too when they say 'let a child be what it wants'?

    A. Absolutely. They 'love', in a way, by giving the child freedom of psychological movement but neglect the moral law which is necessary to define a child's world view. This was the fatal flaw of the secular philosophy which burst to the surface in the 1960's and which has corrupted all subsequent generations.

    The question that must be addressed is one of balance. As dual-natured beings we function inwardly on dual principle. Our inner needs are a bit like a railway line with two rails. If the train of our spiritual and emotional life is to run smoothly then it needs the twin rails of ahavah (love) and moral discipline. But people think too much in monist terms...'either/or' terms. Either you discipline or you love. That's very dangerous. But it's so typical. That's how the Pharisees were in Yah'shua's (Jesus's) day. So many people are deficient in one or the other area -- they need balance. So too does the homosexual.

    Q. So what is the homosexual searching after if it is not sex, as you mentioned a few minutes ago?

    A. Many homosexuals do not seem to realise what appears so obvious -- they are in pursuit of substitutes. Many apotheosise homosexual love as the only true love and may cite the Greeks to prove it. And Christian homosexuals love to cite David and Jonathan whose love for one other, the Bible says, was greater than the love of men for women. But that is to seriously misrepresent the greatest of love, the non-sexual ahavah/agapé love that Messiah came to teach -- sacrificial brotherly ahavah (love), and which David and Jonathan had for each other, and what we in NCAY called 'firstborn love'.

    Homosexual 'love', so-called, is unreal love made by unreal people. What gives the sexual search of the homosexual such intensity is the need to feel loved and so to find the end to nagging tension.

    One of the former patients of Dr.Arthur Janov, Primal psychotherapist who in my opinion is the most enlightened of the secular psychologists, said this, and I quote:

      "Each new sexual contact left me slightly dissatisfied, and I never knew why. I thought it was a penis I wanted, the bigger, the better -- until I got it. Then I needed more and more. After I felt how much I wanted my father, I knew it wasn't a penis I wanted. I guess I became a screaming fag because I could never scream for that *-*-*-*-*." This patient said that his effeminate behaviour early in his teens was a constant scream for what never came -- his parents' help."

    Another patient, whose parents were 'dead' inside him and completely unfeeling, said:

      "I know why I used to be so hung up on blowing guys (chasing men for homosexual relationships). I think I was literally trying to suck some life from someone."

    What homosexuals, both male and female, seem to agree upon after they have been cured and become normal heterosexuals is that each of their previous homosexual contacts seem to mean 'Mummy (or Daddy), love me!'.

    Q. So homosexuality is simply a need for parental love?

    A. In the vast majority of cases, yes. And this has a very, very important conclusion which we must not miss; namely, the aim of homosexuality is HETEROSEXUALITY. Now I am not playing with words here. What it means is that the aim of all neurosis is to have one's pain taken away so as to be a real, feeling person. When the pain is gone, we would expect homosexuality to be gone also, AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS!

    Q. Can it be so simple?

    A. Are you surprised? You shouldn't be. So many of life's apparently insoluble problems have simple solutions. And you don't have to go very far to find them. They lie right in your own heart.

    Now this is the grand key to the whole problem of homosexuality. No amount of heterosexual acts can alter the homosexual state until that pain is felt. Having sex with dozens of women cannot take away the desperate need of a man for his father. This means that no amount of kissing and fondling from either men or women in the present will alter sexual deviation.

    Q. So the same remedy is applicable to promiscuous heterosexuals also?

    A. Yes, absolutely. And here Christianity is absolutely unique for it provides for the homosexual the Father he always needed. Our Heavenly Father, revealed to us through Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ), is a caring, loving and faithful Father, and we are his sons and daughters. His ahavah (love) is unconditional.

    Q. But if a homosexual needs to be hugged and kissed by a physical father, then how can our Heavenly Father meet that need?

    A. You are right here. We are physical as well as spiritual beings. Our Father in Heaven exists in the spiritual dimension and meets our spiritual needs. Messiah, you will remember, told us not only to administer to people's spiritual needs by bringing them to the Father through Him but to also meet people's physical needs.

    The first Christians/Messianics were a very tender and affectionate people, and all true regenerated Christians/Messianics are. Their relationship one to another is tremendously deep. You will read in the letters of Paul how they used to greet each other with a sacred kiss. This was entirely non-sexual but nevertheless stresses the physical dimension of brotherly and sisterly love. We, as Messianic Evangelicals, are very 'huggy' people which is difficult for new members sometimes especially if they come from a cultural background which has taught them not to be too familiar with people. Even some of our older members still have problems with his! I myself had a very formal upbringing and had no such contact with my father at all, which I regretted a long time. But I have changed. Our non-sexual physical contact is very much a sign of the development of the heart-love in a people and is very much a part of true Christianity.

    Yah'shua (Jesus) taught His talmidim (disciples) that all those who obeyed Elohim (God) were His "father, mother, brother and sister". The Christian/Messianic fellowship is one intimate family. We believe in cuddling our children and making them feel through their bodies how much we love them in our hearts. It is essential for their healthy emotional development.

    Q. Such can be overdone, can it not?

    A. That is true. Many people hug and kiss compulsively not because it comes naturally to them but because they feel forced to do it. Many do it for various other psychological reasons, not all of which are good. You can't force people to be spontaneously affectionate but at the same time it must be understood that this is a sign of Christian/Messianic ahavah/agapé (love). A homosexual needs a good father-figure, or maybe a mother-figure with whom to identify and feel ahavah (love) from. In the Christian community we are blessed with many 'fathers' and 'mothers', not to mention brothers and sisters. It is truly a blessed community!

    Q. Don't you think there are difficulties finding the right balance of just the right amount of affection?

    A. Without a core of mature Christian 'fathers' (patriarchs) and 'mothers' (matriarchs), yes, this can be difficult, especially in a world where rôles are all mixed up. In NCAY we find that we must spend alot of time teaching people what real fatherhood and motherhood is because so few people in our Western society have experienced it. This takes time. In the beginning as a Community (Church) we were very inexperienced and fumbled a great deal as we learned the correct pattern, and I would say that we are still learning. We have many keys, so many that it will take a very long time to put them all into practice. But we are working at it.

    Discerning people's needs is very, very important, and here a knowledgeable ministry is needed. I hope we provide that. Certainly that is what the Holy Order is for. Let's take an example. What the homosexual may experience when he is kissed by a woman is something symbolic -- father's love. Those kisses do not fulfil the real need; nor do the kisses of a man fulfil that need, for that matter. Women's kisses and caresses may even deepen the homosexuality in the male homosexual by temporarily covering the need for a father. Women's warmth, then, prevents him from feeling his pain, which is the very thing he must do in order to become heterosexual.

    Would the homosexual man need male love if he were fully loved by his mother in early life? No. He needs male love because he was deprived of love by both parents, each in his own way. He seeks after male love because for a variety of reasons he was put in the struggle by a father who did not love him.

    Q. So what is the cure for the homosexual? Is it not true that the iHoly Order has a cure?

    A. Yes, we do. It consists of two essential parts. The first is simply sitting down with the homosexual and finding out what those deep seated needs are and then taking him through the pain of that need, in all its horrific nakedness. This regression is not always absolutely necessary and will take a shorter or longer period of time depending on the homosexual's trust of the elders of the Community (Church) and even more importantly their trust in, and love of, the Master Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ).

    Q. Identifying the need and experiencing the pain is therefore the first step?

    A. It doesn't have to be painful but it usually is. Primal therapists report that the patient gives out a horrendous scream, called by them a 'Primal Scream', which releases all the in-built tension. Often a cure comes once that has been reached. The switch between homosexuality and heterosexuality comes when real contact is made with the heart. The secular therapists then recommend living through lots of past experiences -- reliving the pain of the web of hurts caused by parental lack of love. That is not always necessary. Where the Christian differs from the secular psychotherapist is that at this point he invites the Master Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) to enter at his point of need and effect a supernatural healing.

    Q. The Holy Order has an ordinance, does it not? Is this an essential part of the cure?

    A. Not always. Ordinances are points of focus. In its simplest concept, the ordinance symbolically 'rewires' the homosexual as perhaps you might rewire a radio set that had been connected up wrong. In the homosexual the male and female natures have become inverted.

    Q. You mean we have two natures?

    A. Right. Psychologists call them the anima and the animus. In a properly balanced man, the male nature dominates an unconscious female nature called the anima; and in the woman, the female nature dominates an unconscious male nature called the animus. As a homosexual denies or represses his male nature so his unconscious, recessive female side or anima becomes conscious and dominant and his male side becomes unconscious. He then believes that he is a woman living in a male body. The reverse happens in lesbians, the female becoming unconscious and the male conscious, and she believes she is a male living in a female body. This total contradiction between inner and outer leads to neurosis and thus to tension and the homosexual really believes that he is a woman, and the lesbian that she is a man. But it is all an illusion.

    In the ordinance a reversing of these polarities is symbolically enacted using the arms which respectively represent the male and male natures. The arms are crossed to symbolise the inversion of the homosexual's male and female natures. With Messiah focused in the mind of the homosexual with a prayer in his heart for healing, he then performs an inner visualisation of his arms, whilst an elder separates his two arms.

    Of course, the ordinance is quite useless without proper spiritual preparation such as I have already outlined. I repeat, it is an aid and may not be necessary. It is not the ordinance which heals but the processes going on inside.

    Q. Have you ever employed other ordinances or techniques?

    A. No, but one of the members was shown a vision a few years ago in which a healing process took place. It was slightly different from the pattern in the revelation but which I feel is just as valid. It concerns a very dear brother in Messiah who was a homosexual, and was a prophetic dream of what is to come when he is ready to be healed. She has changed his name in the account. Here is the account:

      "'Adam' lay on the floor in the temple with his feet on the Patriarch's stomach. The Patriarch of the Holy Order crossed his arms and then took hold of 'Adam's' hands. I was aware that this was a special ordinance. Then the Patriarch began to pull him off the floor and raised him about half a metre. Just before he ascended, 'Adam' cried gently from the depths of his soul, "Daddy! Daddy! Daddy!" many times, sounding like a little boy who had been lonely all his life and had suddenly found deliverance. As 'Adam' was lifted up, a very bright, clear and luscious light suddenly exploded around them both and they totally disappeared out of my sight. The whole atmosphere was one of intense joy. I could not understand the holiness and exalted nature of what was happening."

    Q. That's wonderful! Do you think this will happen literally? How much did this sister know about the revelation you have described?

    A. I am quite sure it will happen. Whether the healing will take place exactly as seen in the vision I don't know but I am sure it will happen if he chooses to let it happen. Yes, she knew about the revelation, at least in outline. The main difference between the vision and revelation is that the homosexual brother was lying down and not standing up. Whether the Patriarch uncrossed his arms or not is hard to tell because of the blinding light, but I suppose he did but it was not visible to the beholder.

    Q. So, if the cause of homosexuality is a lack of love, then the solution is to give the homosexual love?

    A. I don't believe so. Even if a wonderfully loving father were suddenly to appear in the home of a young homosexual who, say, has reached his teens, I don't think the presence of a loving father would make any difference at all to the problem itself.

    Q. That doesn't make sense. If there is a lack, then surely you simply fill it?

    A. It's not that simple. If the homosexual boy's past history made it necessary for him to deny himself and his needs in order to survive with a sadistic father, for example, then a loving stepfather who arrives later will not be able to undo that earlier history.

    Q. You mean, he's still got to go through the pain process?

    A. Exactly. Even in cases where the parents have mellowed over the years, the homosexual still experiences the tension caused by his neurosis brought on by earlier hurts. I don't think people realise just how sensitive human beings are. A person is like an intricate mechanical watch. If the owner is rough with the watch and damages the sensitive parts, giving the damaged watch to an owner who takes better care of it won't make the watch work again. First it must be repaired. It must be opened up, dismantled, repaired, and reassembled. Then, and only then, does a more careful owner come into the picture.

    So it is with the homosexual. Loving and caring Christians/Messianics have been terribly frustrated because they have not been able to help the homosexual. Despite all the ahavah (love) they pout out, the neurosis remains. The homosexual, sensing their frustration, may even be driven into greater despair and a sense of worthlessness.

    Q. Is this something you have experienced yourself?

    A. Yes, in my early days in the ministry, I did all I could to help a homosexual but was repeatedly frustrated in my efforts because I did not have all the keys that I now have. No amount of ahavah (love) seemed to make any difference and my pitiful attempts to explain the condition -- which were often far off the mark -- did little to relieve his frustration. I was right in many areas -- I knew that celibacy was the first and most important step. I also understood the principle of the reversal of male and female principles, but what I didn't know was the first cause, though I had many ideas, similar to the ones you voiced at the beginning of this interview.

    Q. You mean, that homosexuality is caused by an assertive father?

    A. Yes. I was half right but otherwise I was fumbling in the dark. But the problem was far more complex than I even imagined. Having acknowledged that homosexuality is abnormal and taken a commitment to live a celibate life -- that is, to forsake all sexual contacts and get out of the homosexual environment altogether where the temptation is strong -- the next step is to get the homosexual to feel. But the past is always in the way of the present. If a person could fully feel the ahavah (love) in the present, it means he could fully feel. But to fully feel, for the neurotic, means to feel all his pain first, for that is what arises when he feels. After feeling the pain, he can accept all the present love.

    Q. But what, if after feeling the pain, the homosexual reverts to covering it over again?

    A. That is a great danger and all too common. Confronting the pain can be terrifying not only for the homosexual but for the one ministering too. The first time I experienced this I was alarmed and feared violence. This is always a possibility. It's like a dam breaking where the emotions can spill into physical reaction. But if Messiah can be kept firmly in the centre of the picture -- and this is where the secular psychologist is lacking -- then not only the pain but also the anger can be smothered in a release of divine ahavah (love) at the moment the inner explosion takes place.

    Q. Was that the light in the vision seen by the sister?

    A. I believe so. As the crossed 'circuits' were uncrossed and an explosion of energy took place, so, the divine light absorbed the tidal wave of hurt and transformed it into pure simcha (joy) -- the simcha (joy) of final and permanent release.

    But to reach this stage, all the old denials have to be faced. Facing homosexuality requires nothing less that 100 per cent unconditional surrender on the part of the homosexual. There is no release by degrees, in my opinion, just as it is impossible to partially repair a malfunctioning watch. So long as the old denials exist, they will impel distorted and perverted symbolic behaviour. Homosexual 'marriages', so-called, for example, may go on for years. Both partners seem satisfied and loved, yet there exists a high tension level and homosexuality (neurosis). Why? Because homosexual lovers are satisfying themselves symbolically and not actually. They are usually trying to get Father's ahavah (love) out of each other. When they feel this real need, the symbolic quest drops away. Homosexual 'marriages' tend to be unstable just because they are symbolic arrangements which cannot lastingly satisfy the partners.

    Q. So really homosexuality isn't a disease at all?

    A. Perhaps instead of calling it a disease it would be better to describe homosexuality as a different route for the satisfaction of deprived and often denied need.

    Many homosexuals, out of inner conviction that homosexuality is wrong, have tried to go 'straight' without solving the neurosis. This I know from my own experience. This only deepens the lie because it means to pretend to give up the need for the father's ahavah (love), and no one can do that so long as that need is there and real. The only way to get rid of that need is to feel it.

    Q. And that's what the ordinance does, doesn't it? It provides a symbolic father...

    A. Again, I must stress, that the ordinance doesn't itself meet the need -- it is simply an outer, visual part of the mechanism of meeting that need through an outer drama which is supposed to make contact with the inner. The Patriarch, or whoever is presiding at the healing session, becomes not so much a symbolic father as a proxy father. In a way, he becomes the ex-homosexual's first father in Messiah. Thereafter he will find many, many more! And mothers too, if he needs them.

    Q. What of a female homosexual -- a lesbian -- is it a man who presides during the ordinance, or can a woman perform it?

    A. Yes, a Matriarch can serve both the homosexual and lesbian, depending what the need is. Or sometimes both a Patriarch and a Matriarch can preside. Usually it is the Patriarch.

    Q. I know that some of our readers will be wondering what a 'Patriarch' and a 'Matriarch' are as these are not familiar terms save in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Could you briefly explain...

    A. Yes. The words 'Patriarch' and 'Matriarch' can be rendered as 'spiritual father' and 'spiritual mother'. A Pastor is a 'patriarch' in the local assembly because he is the spiritual father of the congregation. We have female pastors also, who are the spiritual mothers of the congregation. The Holy Order is led by spiritual fathers and mothers.

    Spiritual fathers and mothers are vital to the health of a Christian/Messianic family, both biological and congregational. The great revelation of the Christian/Messianic emunah (faith) is that Elohim (God) is not some impersonal force but literally our "Father" and the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) our "Mother". And we address Him by that Name because we know Him intimately as we should our earthly fathers. For Messianic Evangelicals, wholeness comes not only through brotherhood and sisterhood but through fatherhood and motherhood too.

    Q. Thank you for that clarification. I wonder if we could talk a little about the homosexual's identity. Is it not true that a homosexual is a heterosexual in search of an identity?

    A. That's quite a philosophical question! If a person cannot be what he is, he will have to search for his identity. That's true not only for homosexuals but for disturbed heterosexuals too. The homosexual, however, unlike the heterosexual, is doomed never to find that identity, since his identity is no more than the real, feeling self which was not allowed expression. Thus the search for identity is a neurotic enterprise, carried on by unfeeling people who generally need to find someone or something outside themselves to tell them what or who they are inside. Once the homosexual has encountered his pain, in its totality, he will no longer suffer from an identity crisis. Because he feels, he has no reason any longer to wonder who he is.

    Now this subject is important not only for homosexuals but for all humans generally. This is a very touchy, sensitive area indeed, but we must deal with it. When a child is now allowed to be himself, he is forced to copy -- consciously or unconsciously -- the behaviours, ideals, attitudes and mannerisms of others. A child brought up by normal parents will not identify with them. They will not want him to do so. Rather, he will have attributes that are his own.

    Q. Do you mean that Christians, for example, shouldn't expect their children to obey the mitzvot (commandments)???

    A. No, that's not what I mean at all. The mitzvot (commandments) are a basic rule of conduct that Elohim (God) has given for all mankind.

    Q. But isn't imposing a moral code of behaviour what makes some children neurotic?

    A. Again, you are confusing two separate though interrelated issues. Actually, we have already talked about this but perhaps I can state it in a different way this time. Yahweh has given us mitzvot (commandments) which He expects us to obey. Correct?

    Q. Correct.

    A. There are two ways we can live them -- by having them imposed externally upon us or by them growing naturally up within us. Correct?

    Q. Correct.

    A. The heart of the New Covenant, as defined by Jeremiah, is that the Torah (Law) be written in our hearts. In other words, the higher law requires that the mitzvot (commandments) grow up naturally within. And how can that occur?

    Q. By the child being allowed to be itself!

    A. Right. Now 'being one's self' doesn't mean making up your own moral code of behaviour -- one's own ethics. No. Being one's self means being one's own personality. No child is like its parents. It may share characteristics of its parents but it is a unique individual. Once a child senses that the parents want it to be carbon copies of themselves the child start repressing itself and trying to be what it is not. And besides, how can the child be both? No two parents are alike! Thus the child may not only become a neurotic but a schizophrenic too.

    If we are to have healthy families we must allow children to be the nature that Yahweh made them. My eldest son, for example, is very sporty and 'physical' and not at all intellectual, at least not yet. It would be a fatal mistake on my part to try and bind him down and make him more introvert and thinking. He must be allowed to develop the way in which Elohim (God) created him. Messianic Evangelicals have an advantage over many other believers, I think, because of our belief in spiritual pre-existence. We do not believe that the personality of a child comes into existence at the moment of conception. We do not believe that its personality is simply the sum and mixing of the two parent's personalities. We believe that the spirits of the unborn pre-existed this life and had their own unique personalities before birth.

    This means that whilst parents contribute certain character traits to their children both genetically as well as through behavioural absorption, at heart the child is utterly unique. As Messianic Evangelicals we treat out children as utterly unique. Or at least, that is what we are supposed to do.

    Coming into NCAY often, then, means that parents - or prospective parents - have to break old behaviour patterns and learn to think, feel and behave in new ways. That is what temple education is for. And particularly we are anxious that behaviour patterns which lead to neurosis are broken. Souls must be allowed to be free.

    That freedom to be one's self is not, I repeat, a license to rewrite Elohim's (God's) mitzvot (commandments). These are two different things. The mitzvot (commandments) were given by Yahweh to, and for, man. In other words, they are natural to us. They were tailor-made for us. But they must be allowed to grow up from within.

    Q. But in practice parents find this very, very hard. Surely the rules must be imposed externally too?

    A. That is the dilemma. And it really is a dilemma. On the one hand the individual needs the freedom to grow and discover himself or herself. On the other, we are social creatures and we must therefore have mutually agreed rules and laws if society is to flourish in peace and safety. These principles can, however, be taught children. They, like us, partake of the same fallen nature which, when yielded to, leads to rebellion. If they are taught the necessity of externally imposed rules they will usually understand if you teach them young enough. It's when they're older and perhaps more rebellious and resistive to instruction that you will have trouble with externally imposed rules. But I think every sensible person agrees that they are necessary.

    Actually, they wouldn't be necessary if everyone were brought up in the ways of Yahweh. That is the heart of Yahweh's message to Jeremiah. A time is coming when it won't be necessary to teach people these things for everyone will know the Davar Elohim (Way of God). That, however, will not find fulfillment until a later time, in the Millennium. However, that does not stop us as Messianic Evangelicals from creating millennial conditions within our own Community, and especially in firstborn communities. And that is what we aim to do, and what we ae doing now.

    Q. Allowing children to 'be themselves' can surely be very hard when sometimes we don't know where to place the boundaries? Should, for example, children be allowed to be noisy?

    A. You have hit me in a very personal spot here! As you know I am a school teacher by profession and I must say I have had to revise many of my opinions about such matters over the years. I am a person who likes order, discipline and quietness, but that is in part, I suspect, because I grew up in a home where these things existed. Not surprisingly, since I was a single child.

    This in turn led me to have certain expectations of my children, some of which have proven to be wrong. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that we should relax our standards. We must have order, discipline and quietness, because that is essential to the development of sound spirituality. And it is important that children are taught these things. At the same time, children must be allowed to be children. We mustn't make them into miniature adults. How can they grow and develop naturally if we do that?

    By that I mean that children need to be allowed to be noisy sometimes. Any teacher will tell you so. Children are fully of the vitality of life and they need to express it.

    When I began life as a teacher in a large school here in Norway I tried to impose order and discipline with a hard hand. It didn't work. Certain personalities immediately reacted strongly against it and became even more unruly. Many children, of course, complied, because they simply wanted to please me, just as children comply with their parents' wishes to please them -- i.e., not to make them angry. Or to put it another way, they please because they don't want their parents to stop loving them.

    Q. Which is where homosexuality all starts...

    A. Yes. And many other psychological disorders too. I see latent homosexuality in school all the time and I see how male children, who may only be a little effeminate, are pounced upon by other children who try to label them as homosexual. And they may even start believing it to the point they become it.

    Q. And that's not helped by the permissive education on homosexuality in many schools in the West.

    A. Absolutely not. Homosexual education in school is a great wickedness because it encourages children to experiment and break the mitzvot (commandments). There are so many forces arrayed against normal, family life now, and it's going to get worse. We have to fight to preserve normality.

    Q. What about the difficult children in your class at school? How did you deal with the problem?

    A. Firstly, I let them be who they were but within certain boundaries. I first work hard first to convince them I am their friend. I joke with them and have fun with them but I expect good manners and a certain decorum. I take the view that allowing them to grow up normally is more important than getting good grades. I wouldn't want any child to grow up a homosexual for the sake of grades if it ever came to a choice. Indeed, ask any homosexual if he would like his children to be homosexuals like him, then I guarantee that the majority would say 'no'. And why, if it is a valid 'alternative lifestyle'? Because in their heart of hearts they don't want their children to go through their inner hell. Deep down they know something is wrong.

    Q. What about children being adopted by homosexuals? What do you think about that?

    A. I cry for those children who are going to be patterned all wrongly inside. It is not enough for them to see 'love' -- they need to see normal love -- man-woman love, the only true sexual love that Elohim (God) created. As you can imagine, a child brought up in an adoptive homosexual home is going to be more likely to end up homosexual than heterosexual. It is a crime.

    Q. If a boy who was born in a world of only females, would he, do you think, become feminine? Or homosexual?

    A. No, he wouldn't. There is a theory, popular amongst homosexuals, that children are born basically bisexual and then either diverge into heterosexuality -- depending on the patterning they get at home and in society -- or into homosexuality. This is utter nonsense. Though a child is outwardly male or female, inwardly they have no sexuality at all to begin with. The two parts of a child -- male and female -- are originally united as a whole. In boys, the female side gradually becomes unconscious until, around puberty, it becomes unconscious altogether and their full masculinity expresses itself. Similarly in girls, the male side gradually becomes unconscious until, around puberty, it becomes unconscious too.

    It is then that sexuality begins to manifest itself. Girls become interested in boys, and boys in girls. Why does this happen? Because the boys are searching for their unconscious female side, and girls their unconscious male side.

    Q. Is this purposeful?

    A. Absolutely. If this didn't happen, we wouldn't become sexual creatures at all and we wouldn't bother to go seeking for mates. Some say that the original condition of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden was very much like this, before their respective anima and animus became unconscious. There may be some truth in this, I don't know.

    Q. So what you're saying is that if our opposite natures didn't become unconscious, we wouldn't search for husbands and wives? What then, is the purpose of marriage, psychologically speaking?

    A. This is somewhat beyond the scope of this interview but I will try to answer that briefly. We become sexual for two reasons: First, so that we can propagate the species; and Secondly, to make us creative. It is only in the separation of male and female that creativity results.

    Q. You mean artistic creativity?

    A. And scientific -- creativity in general. When the opposite part of our gender becomes unconscious we become 'tense', but in a positive, constructive, natural way. Creativity always comes out of tension. That is why, incidentally, many of the brilliant scientists, artists and musicians were homosexuals, only their tension was unnatural. Peter Tchaikovsky the musician, Cecil Rhodes the explorer, Oscar Wilde the writer, Andy Warhole the painter, and many other creative individuals were or are homosexual .. and deeply unhappy persons too, as one would expect. Unfortunately, this creative genius is used by homosexuals to proclaim the validity of homosexuality. Let me state it again, there is no virtue in homosexuality because it is a perversion, a sickness. The creativity belongs to Elohim (God), not to the homosexual (or heterosexual, for that matter).

    Q. Messianic Evangelicals believe in eternal marriage, but if I understand you correctly, sexuality will disappear one day. What, then, becomes of marriage?

    A. Again, we must be careful not to generalise. If sexuality disappeared altogether, then so would creativity. Sexuality is, in a way, creativity. But what I would call earthly, physical sexuality will disappear, yes. We have to ask ourselves the question: why do we have earthly sexuality? Well, I've partly answered that question, I think. But we must ask other questions first.

    Why are we here on earth? We are here to learn emunah (faith) in, and obedience, to Elohim (God). We are also hear to learn to love unconditionally. You cannot have emunah (faith) in knowledge. Thus our pre-existence knowledge is taken away from us. We do not remember our pre-earth life, though some individuals remember some.

    Q. Let's be clear, you're not talking about reincarnation, are you?

    A. That's right. We do not believe in reincarnation, a doctrine which, incidentally, totally upsets the true view of sexuality, because it is used as an excuse for homosexuality.

    Q. How?

    A. Well, the homosexual can often escape by speculating that he might have been a woman in the previous life and that is why he is homosexual in this one. All sorts of ingenious but silly explanations are given that remind me of the intricate and brilliant -- but wholly erroneous -- explanations given by the followers of Ptolemy to explain the movement of stars and planets using the notion of epicycles. They insisted that the earth was at the centre of the Universe and had to explain everything in those terms. The theory became top heavy and had to eventually be abandoned. The same is true with reincarnation, karma, and all the other silly yet deadly doctrines being spewed out in the world to deceive and enslave millions. Reincarnation is used to explain everything but the emet (truth). The fact still remains that a homosexual is a homosexual because his father or mother didn't love him, not because he was a pervert in a previous life, or a woman or anything else. The only hope for a homosexual who believes in reincarnation is that he suffers enough in this life and must pay off his bad 'karma' so that he can be born 'normal' in the next (if he believes homosexuality is abnormal -- the trouble is, there are as many theories of reincarnation as their are human beings).

    But back to my original point, the purpose of our being here. Once a husband and wife have found each other and love each other unconditionally in Messiah, then their unconscious selves are re-united with their conscious selves. It is at this point that the need for physical sexuality dims as they discover union on a higher plane.

    Q. Do you mean that sexuality for heterosexuals, like homosexuals, is in a way an attempt to get love?

    A. Be careful in your comparisons. For homosexuals, sex is a drug to numb pain. For psychologically normal, non-compulsive heterosexuals, it is a normal, natural vehicle towards union of male and female. It is also a vehicle for external expression. We are physical beings and must express ourselves physically in order to be whole. Yet sex, as members of this fellowship are taught, can be transformed into other creative energies. It is, as I have said, the energy behind scientific and artistic invention and creativity in a transformed state. But this is a very big subject.

    Q. So what of heaven? Are we sexual there? What of marriage?

    A. Yah'shua (Jesus) said that there is no marriage in heaven, a scripture that has been twisted by some groups who see marriage in heaven as essentially a continuation of marriage here. They say that this means there are no marriage ceremonies in heaven -- that marriage for eternity must take place here. The vast majority of Christians say that marriage ends altogether at death and that we are single in the eternities.

    Messianic Evangelicals accept neither proposition. It is absurd for us to imagine that the intense Messiah-like love in marriage should suddenly by split apart at death. We know this does not happen. Equally, we do not believe in the resurrection, where, as Paul says, our bodies are "spiritual", that we can possibly have exactly the same kind of physical union because our bodies will be changed. Thus there can be no "marriage" in heaven of this kind.

    Again, this is an enormous subject that would be best treated elsewhere. Suffice to say that in heaven we will not have the need for 'physical' sex because it won't be there any more -- save in those people who have sexual problems, who will continue seeking spiritual release through physical sex and intimacy and never finding it (because it isn't possible any more).

    We believe that sex becomes elevated or transformed into something holier and that this can be experienced on earth once the passions are subdued naturally. We are not, incidentally, ascetics. We do not teach celibacy (except before marriage). Marriage is the height of normality for us. It is part of the process of maturing spiritually. We believe that as married persons become more and more Messiah-centred, and therefore more and more sanctified and qadosh (holy, set-apart), that the need for physical sex gradually fades away, because the real contact they have is within.

    NCAY teaches that as we transcend (but not flee from) the need for sex, so the qodeshim (saints, set-apart ones) become part of that wider, spiritual or allegorical marriage, called the Marriage of the Lamb. It is here that souls who have attained to oneness within themselves and with Messiah become one or echad together, as Messiah prayed for in the Garden of Gethsemane. Collectively, these qodeshim (saints, set-apart ones) or Christians/Messianics are known as the Assembly of the Firstborn, or the Bride of the Lamb, the mystical 144,000 spoken of by John on Patmos. These souls no longer play out the need to unite with their opposites through marriage because they are already one. They remain married to their earthly spouses but they are also allegorically 'married' to Christ and therefore to each other in a spiritual sense.

    Q. This, then, is the purpose of the Holy Order?

    A. Yes, that is our final aim. But we are not recluses from the world. We are active Christian/Messianic witnesses in the world too. As one beginning to operate in the apostolic office, I am sent out by the Order, just as the apostles were sent out by the Order in Jerusalem when James presided. The Order trains up the ministers for NCAY and then calls them. All the pastors, elders, teachers and deacons are trained in the Order.

    Q. Back to the boy born in a world of females. What would happen to him?

    A. Yes, let us return to the main theme. A boy born in a world of females would grow up a normal boy. If he were allowed to be himself and were loved, he would be quite masculine. But these are the keys -- self-unfolding and unconditional ahavah (love). But if this same boy were brought up by women who were neurotic then there would be all the likelihood of his becoming feminine.

    Q. So why do people ask themselves, 'Who am I?' Is it because they are neurotic?

    A. Very often. Usually they have had to be someone else in order to get what looked like love from the parents. All the ways they were forced to act instead of be, tend to confuse their so-called identity. The only person you can identify with is yourself. If you are not yourself, you will have to search for yourself. One woman once said: "I went to Europe last year to find myself, but I wasn't there." I once planned to run off to a Greek island to find myself -- I'm glad I never did because I realised I wouldn't find myself. Usually such trips result in the understanding that, as one children's story writer said: "Sometimes we must travel far to discover what is near." Actually, I believe that people who compulsively travel all over the world to meet new friends and see new places are often acting out a desire to find themselves. Certainly I have known people like this and at the same time sensed their inner loneliness.

    When I was a boy I know my father was disappointed that I didn't like cars and trains as he did, but to his credit he never forced me to participate in his hobbies. Instead I developed an interest in planes and ships, though I loved architecture as my father did. My eldest son and daughter share my love of philately and one or two other things which they came to out of curiosity and thus out of natural desire, but they have their own interests which are utterly meaningless to me personally. But I try to encourage them to pursue them so that they can be themselves. Similarly, our wives and husbands in NCAY have different interests to ourselves and they must be free too. My daughter is a compulsive collector and her room is chock-a-block with things which frustrates my wife and I a lot. But she is expressing herself and we allow her to do so long as there is a measure of order and tidiness! She must be free. We call this the Five Wise Virgins Principle in NCAY which is based on a revelation received by the Holy Order.

    Q. There are many different kinds of homosexual, from the aggressive 'macho' homosexual to the timid, effeminate 'nellie'. How do you explain the difference?

    A. Pathologically, there isn't very much difference. I have met both kinds and in my opinion both are suffering from the same condition. One was an aggressive hunter after sexual mates and the other in search of the ideal spiritual male union. There is little difference between the boy who identifies with the 'he-man' and the one who identifies with women. The difference between a butch homosexual and a nellie seems only a difference in the direction of flight from the pain, rather than in levels of pain. When a butch homosexual adopts tatoos and motorcycles, grows a beard, or takes up weight-lifting, it can indicate that he still may not feel himself and must identify with what he thinks is masculine. He may still be after Father's love and attempts in various ways to be like the real man Father wanted.

    The nellie may have given up on Father and tried to copy Mother's interests and ways. Because the butch may have been unloved by a father, he still could be seduced by men, prefers the company of men, and in many ways is similar to the effeminate homosexual. He may not feel any more manly than the nellie and may be worse off because his pretense must be so great.

    In less obvious ways many men and women who cannot feel themselves adopt the trappings or the image of what they want to be. The man may sport a large moustache, boots, or rugged clothes, while a woman, in an attempt to appear feminine, may wear low-cut dresses or tight slacks. The very need to project an 'image' can be a clue to the very opposite feelings inside, and with these buried feelings one often finds sexual dysfunctions as well. Without doubt though a man may put up a good masculine front, the attempt to be a 'he-man' is often betrayed by impotence or homosexual fantasies or fears. As one former homosexual said: "The struggle was to keep my beard on long enough to feel like a man so I wouldn't need it any more. I didn't understand it then, but I do now."

    Q. I wonder if we could move on to treat the subject of bisexuality. What is the essential difference between bisexuality and homosexuality?

    A. Not that much. Bisexuality, if it really exists, is simply a stage in the development of the homosexual condition, in my opinion. The symptoms of so-called bisexuals are very similar if not identical to homosexuals -- tension, quick to get angery, a desire to please, insecurity, a dominating nature, and so on. They suffer from the same neuroses as the homosexual.

    As I have mentioned, since the time of Freud, many schools of psychology have suggested that man is basically bisexual. They state that each of us is part homosexual and part heterosexual. Following the evolutionary theory of origins, they maintain that the aim of a good defence system then would be to suppress the latent homosexual tendencies and work out a proper relationship with the opposite sex. Thus the theories believe that adolescent homosexuality may be normal until the youngster grows up into what is called the genital stage of development. Homosexual dreams, they maintain, are also to be considered as part of normal functioning.

    This theory we completely reject. What these theoreticians describe is not bisexuality but neurosis. So many people have been deprived of love from both parents that there is often a lingering need for love from either sex. This need is so universal that it is unsurprising that bisexuality is considered to be a general phenomenon.

    There is no such thing as a basic homosexual tendency in man. If this were so, cured homosexuals would still have homosexual needs, which they do not. Ex-homosexuals who have been intensively studied after their cure report no homosexual leanings, fantasies, or dreams.

    Q. So you don't believe that there is such a thing as a bisexual?

    A. No, not really.

    Q. But those who call themselves bisexuals say they are equally attracted to women as they are to men, whereas homosexuals say they are not attracted to women at all...

    A. The cause is the same -- a lack of parental love, as are also the symptoms I have mentioned. Both live in fantasy worlds even though they will rarely admit it. The difference, if there is one, is that 'bisexuals' may not hate as much as homosexuals. They may not suppress the pain as much. Thus the difference may only be one of degree.

    Q. Does the bisexual need to be cured as much as the homosexual?

    A. I would have thought that was obvious since both are neurotics and both have deep, suppressed pain.

    Q. What do you think is the greatest obstacle to healing?

    A. Trust. It is hard for them to trust because they have been let down so much both by themselves -- their own lack of trust -- and by well-meaning Christians and psychotherapists who have not understood the root causes of homosexuality. In the past, I must say we have to include ourselves on that list. We were walking very much in the unknown, and the unknown brings fear and uncertainty. That is not good for a homosexual to sense.

    Q. I've noticed you never call homosexuals 'gay'. Why is that?

    A. Because that would be to perpetrate the lie that homosexuality is normal. The word gay used to mean 'light and happy' before it was hijacked and its meaning degraded. But homosexuals are anything but gay. It is ironic that they call heterosexuals 'straight' because the opposite is 'bent' or 'crooked'. Thus we refuse to call them 'gay'. Neither will we call them 'queers' or other demeaning terms because this is to attack them as persons when what they most need is love and understanding. 'Homosexual' is an accurate and more clinical term, reflecting as it does a clinical or medical condition.

    Q. Are homosexuals welcome in NCAY?

    A. Yes, absolutely, so long as they are willing to accept that they are psychologically ill, prepared to break off all homosexual contacts -- that is, become celibate and keep clear of homosexual society -- and are prepared to face their inner pain. We place exactly the same restrictions on heterosexuals with sexual problems.

    Q. What about witnessing to other homosexuals?

    A. Not until they are cured, for obvious reasons, I hope.

    Q. You have talked much about the psychology or inner mechanism or causes of homosexuality, and mentioned that the vast majority of homosexuality is caused by lack of parental love. But you also mentioned other possible causes. What are these?

    A. I have mentioned that homosexuality is not genetic, but by that I mean it is not biologically genetic. Some homosexuality undoubtedly is genetically inherited but not biochemically. These are what might be termed hereditary curses.

    Q. I didn't think Christians believed in curses and that sort of thing any more...

    A. Most don't, but we do. Indeed, part of the ministry of the Holy Order is taking care of just these problems. Again, this is a large subject, so I can only treat it superficially here.

    Homosexuality is often passed from father to son. Sometimes there is a generational gap, and it can be traced back to a grandfather.

    Q. Are these the result of demonic activity?

    A. Quite possibly. We know that certain evil spirits fasten themselves on to homosexuals, feeding off their immoral behaviour.

    Q. So would you say that evil spirits play a rôle in all homosexuality?

    A. In homosexual acts, yes, because those who commit homosexual fornication remove themselves from the protection of Elohim (God), as do heterosexual adulterers. And once demonic influences are present, breaking the hold of homosexuality becomes increasingly more difficult. These things we know for a certain for we are involved in the ministry of exorcism, as I have mentioned.

    Q. What form does this 'protection' take?

    A. We all possess a portion of the Light of Messiah within us. You can read about it in the opening verses of John's Gospel. This is a divine substance which is both our conscience, our channel to Elohim (God), and the source of divine protection.

    Q. You mean, Elohim (God) is within us?

    A. Yes. Yah'shua (Jesus) also called it the Kingdom of Heaven. As one lives a qadosh (holy, set-apart) life, so that Light becomes brighter and brighter until it permeates the whole soul. The result is a Messiah-like personality. Immorality and disobedience to the mitzvot (commandments) in general causes the Light to withdraw to varying degrees -- in proportion to the nature of the sin. It returns to its source. At death, it returns to Elohim (God) altogether, leaving us with the Light we have acquired like leaven within the yeast.

    Q. So how do these curses manifest themselves in homosexuals?

    A. I don't want to go into this subject in too much detail for two reasons. Firstly, it is not the normative cause of homosexuality, and secondly, people have a tendency to see demons in every corner and can end up blaming Satan instead of themselves for their problems. You may well know that in the Middle Ages Christianity saw demons everywhere. They become a good scapegoat for accepting personal responsibility.

    Generational sins are many and varied. You will find these discussed in one of our Bible Series (Foundational Teachings of the Bible, No.9, Elohim's Plan for Inner Healing and Deliverance). But I repeat, most homosexuality is not inherited but is the product of flawed family relationships in childhood.

    Q. You have said that homosexuals and lesbians are welcome to NCAY. I am sure, on our part, we will do everything to make them feel welcome.

    A. Yes. And I hope they will understand that they aren't the only segment of society whom Yah'shua (Jesus) is calling to healing and to active service in the Besorah (Gospel). Yah'shua (Jesus) came first of all to save sinners, and that includes the vast majority of people on the earth -- in fact, all of them. Homosexuals and lesbians have much they can give even while they are working out their problems and should not wait until they are cured or until they feel worthy before they join the fellowship. We invite them to receive Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) as their Saviour and request baptism and become a part of our spiritual family. May Yahwe4h bless them all. Amen.

    Interview given on Friday 17 and Saturday 18 December 1993.

    This page was created on 18 May 1997
    Last updated on 11 May 2017

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