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    Archive Section II


    A Question

    Q. The theory that LDS orginated from fallen angels is one that needs defined and developed in my mind. Events in the founding of the LDS organization the LDS nature of God-- how the LDS explain salvation -- Joseph Smith's life events, and other milestone events in Mormonism must be shown to contain elements/evidences of the characteristics of FALLEN ANGELS.

    Do these FALLEN ANGELS mimic the things of God -- But these imitated things, do they have elements in them that mark them as coming from FALLEN ANGELS as opposed as coming from GOD.

    I have heard it said by LDS on this board that you can tell if things are from GOD because they are GOOD--- from Demons because they are BAD-- and it is just as simple as that! This GOOD vs BAD determination concludes that it is a sure thing that the LDS Religion came from GOD.

    I wish that [NCCG] would systematically outline these specific attributes of FALLEN ANGELS, explain "ANGELOLOGY" in general-- and elaborate.

    Most "anti-Mormons" point to historical explainations of Mormonism. This fallen angel theory need to be developed so that it can be universally understood by all on this BBS.

    Thank you for this question. As this is a relatively recently revealed matter (summer 1998) this is bound to take a little time (though some others saw the connection, we have subsequently learned, before us). Traditional anti-Mormon ideas have been circulating for over one-and-a-half centuries! Please bear with us if this takes a little time as we are both family men with full-time jobs as well as ministries! Clare is writing a book, as most of you know, which, though I have only seen a few chapters, will likely address these issues [now available at NEFILIM].

    I think also it would be a mistake to limit the matter to 'angels'. I guess we would have to define what or who angels are and what difference there is between them and disembodied or unembodied spirits in general. The term 'angel' is used scripturally to mean different things, including flesh-and-blood humans (viz. the pastors of the seven churches of Asia Minor in the Book of Revelation). An 'angel' in the broadest sense is a 'messenger', human or otherwise.

    You are actually asking that we address the whole subject of demonology which is vast, for there are so many types with as many names, each of which is specialised in certain dark crafts.

    The GOOD/BAD mode of definition can be enormously subjective and relativistic. What is lawful (and therefore legalistically 'good') may not always be right, as John Bunyan pointed out in 'Pilgrim's Progess'. One should recall especially how King Saul tried to do 'good' by offering sacrifices in the honour of Yahweh even though this was an act of disobedience on his part and which cost him the crown. To this we must not forget to add that Jesus said many would be rejected at the Judgement Bar who claimed to be doing good works in His Name when in fact they were in violation of His will.

    The Gospel cannot, in any case, simply be reduced to a question of "good" and "bad". As I understand the Christian evangel what ultimately counts is whether we are in God's will or not. Are the Mormons doing good? Certainly they are. There is much good, praiseworthy and commendable in Mormonism (even though many LDS on this BB would wish to paint me as one whose sole aim is to demonise everything Mormon). Christians have much to learn from them.

    That fallen angels/nephilim are the agents behind Mormonism and its continuing guides is really not as important as the fact of what the Mormon Church is relative to what the Bible defines true Christianity it. Simon the Sourcerer was, in someways, a limited prototype of Mormon modus operandi - he saw the power and gifts of the apostles, recognised that they were from God, and desired them for himself, arguably in an exclusive way. Therefore he offered money to purchase this power and so make it his own. Mormons wish to make Christianity their own, excluding other Christians as "apostate" and with only a modicum of diluted truth, and have in a sense puchased a legal indulgence from angels/nephilim.

    I know that most anti-Mormons believe Joseph Smith made it all up or that he was demented, an epileptic, etc., none of which strike me as being reasonable explanations. That he made some things up, such as revising early LDS history in order to bolster later theological developments, is not denied, and it may be that in some instances his gift of fantasy got the better of him. He doubtless thought that what he was doing was justified and that the means justified the end, so long as the result was the "truth". Thus I believe he made up the visitation of the visitation of Peter, James and John to confer the Melchezidek Priesthood because the evidence of a mutilated and rewritten D&C demonstrate that in the beginning he believed he had received THE 'Priesthood of God' from John the Baptist. On the strength of this initial conviction groups like the Hedrickites (Church of Christ/Temple Lot) have laid claim to what they believe to be the original unadulterated Mormon gospel. I do not, however, think he made up the visits of John the Baptist, Moroni/Nephi and the like, or the factuality of the golden plates. A man does not willingly lay down his life for a fantasy. He must have believed some of his own story and had sufficient supernatural experience to back that conviction up. It is here that tradtional anti-Mormon hypotheses of Mormonism's origins, and NCCG, diverge somewhat.

    The Mormons are, I believe, right in saying that Joseph Smith could not have made up the Book of Mormon in his own strength. He had many skills - the gift of story-telling (as his mother Lucy Mack Smith testified), an interest in the Aerican Indians, tremendous curiosity, and a childhood faith in Christ, all of which were important to the construction of the Book of Mormon, but on his own I doubt he could have put it all together. There is no doubt that there is a supernatural imput to the book. Even the question of chiasmus, raised by Wayne, sufficiently demonstrates this point, though we never did get around to showing some of the broken chiastic structures in the book. The book shows a 19th century world view and raises all the issues of that time. Thus it does not, for example, forsee modern heresies and phenomena like the Toronto blessings and the Word of Life Movement. It is strictly limited in its world view, at least prophetically in looking forward to our century and beyond.

    That the Book of Mormon was dictated by the nephilim I and Clare do not believe. The angelic beings/demons acted consistently in the pattern that have always done when 'revealing' new scriptural records - like Levi, the author of the New Age "Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ", the "Book or Urantia" or the "Keys of Enoch", the content clearly reflected contemporary knowledge and therefore must have passed through the filter of the medium, in this case, Joseph Smith. In the case of the "Keys of Enoch", Hurtak displays a level of scientific knowledge that was only available at the time he received his scripture, namely the 1970s. Interestingly, since we are on the subject of New Ager J.J.Hurtak's book, the subject of the "Nephites" appears therein, the only non-Restorationist book that recognizes the existence of "Nephites" ("Return of the Dove", p.49) and their part in the coming age of barbarism. Coincidence? The parallels between the Nurtak's Nephite vision and the nephilim's activities in the anti-Diluvian period is astonishing. This is a book I would like Wayne to read particularly because he will discover an equivalence between Smith's (later) and Young's teachings and Hurtak's pure New Ageism. THE "NEPHITES" ARE DIRECTLY EQUATED WITH THE NEW AGE PLAN FOR EARTH INITIATION AND THE COMING OF THE ANTICHRIST and are linked with the occultic/demonic activity of the New Age movement in general.

    Thus the origin or Mormonism is not a simple black-and-white one. It is a syncretism of Christianity (evangelical protestant in the beginning) and the occult which supernatural forces (nephilim/demons) fused together to create an incredible countrefeit. LDS doctrines show this admixture. Thus Mormons may comfortably defend traditional orthodox Christian doctrines in many instances and indeed, today, wish to be identified as "Christian" more so than at any time in their past, for I believe the heirarchy, as evidenced by the recent ommission of key occultic Freemasonic materials from their temple lectures, wish to be seen as more Christian than occult. Such removals of overtly occultic material do not solve the problem, however, for they cannot move as, for example, the Worldwide Church of God has done since the death of Herbert Armstrong, into a more traditional biblical position, because they have all these extraneous scriptures: the RLDS have tried, but have been rebuffed by the Ecumenical Movement because of these even if they do not necessarily believe in them anymore. For to reject the BoM and D&C (as they must to be accepted by the World Council of Churches) they must effectively undermine their claim to leadership, which is based on priesthood succession like the LDS, and thus lose their power base. They are trapped like the LDS.

    The Book of Mormon (being the key scripture of Mormonism inspite of later works like the D&C deviating from its essentially neo-Christian underpinning) is composed of various elements. The skills of the author (as story-teller of American-Indian things), his childhood conversation with the King James Bible, his likely early acquaintance with Sidney Rigdon before the BoM's publication, his possible acquisition of the Solomon Spalding Manuscript which contained the story line of the Book of Mormon, his interest in money-digging, his involvement with the early revivals and the issues of contemporary Christendom, and other works, provide the ingredients for the book, but not the ability to weave the whole thing together. That had to be done by a supernatural force. Since the book is clearly a 19th century phenomenon, dealing with all the Christian issues of the day but lacking any prophetic knowledge of our own century, and since the various characters and story lines are repetitive in content (inspite of atrtempts to discredit such notions by word prints, a notoriously inacccurate method at the best of times) - e.g. the various local 'anti-Christs' - it cannot be from God. Another power must have authored it. Since he did not have the skills to put it together, and yet his own hand, grammar, syntax and vocabulary appear throughout the book, it had to be the work of dark forces. Given the occultic nature of Mormonism's beginnings, the use of occultic paraphanalia (peep stones, animal sacrifices), involvement with FreeMasonry whose god, Jahbulon, is none other than Baphomet (Satan), and Smith's failure to ever renounce them, it is even more probable that occultic forces were behind the work. His first angel experience (after the original "First Vision", in which the entity identifies himself as 'Nephi', given us a nephilim link; and the fact that he later changes it to 'Moroni', the name of a demon well-known on the Indian sub-continent, and even later in the D&C identified his God as having the name 'Ahman', well-known by occultists as a demon from the Egyptian mysteries connected with familar spirits and generational curses, adds even more strength to the nehilim thesis.

    I realise this is not the systematic study of angels you have requested but I thought I should at least throw something down in order for folk to get a general perspective of where we at NCCG are coming from. As I said, this is a relatively new 'revelation' for us and we are occupied with much else at the time. I am also involved in whiting an exposť of an overtly New Age Mormon break-off group who have taken Smith's and Young's doctrines to their logical conclusion, and this is also taking some time. My health is also not so good. So I hope that this will do for now, at least. Perhaps 'Nephilim' can augment some of the things I have said though I know he is very busy at the moment what with career and home moves.

    To appreciate the spirit of Mormon's origins we must also have some inside knowledge of how demons have set up false religion in the past, and how they are doing it today. They are producing counterfeit works all the time, like "A Course in Miracles", the "Keys of Enoch", the "Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ", the "Gospel of the Holy Twelve", and numerous others. Betty Eadie, who has written two books (that I know of, of "out-of-body experiences"), a Mormon who has effortlessly drifted into the New Age (being especially fond of native American shamanism, where her own genealogical roots are to be found), is another illustration of how Mormonism is but a bridge from Christianity into the New Age.

    The Mormon phenomenon is not unique but the dark forces are, in this post-Christian era, not so interested in counterfeit Christianity as much as they are in advancing the New Age cause more overtly. Evangelical Christianity is already badly infected with New Age teachings with a minority only being true. As Jesus said to His disciples: would He find faith on the earth when He returned? His people are scripturally identified as a tiny remnant in the last days. Mormonism will continue to grow and then, at the appointed time, collapse in a day. It has done its best to conceal its true history but it cannot do so for ever. We and other Christians have had revelations and visions on the future of Mormonism.

    Mormonism has attracted, as Mormons have themselves claimed, good and gifted men and women. When I was a new convert to Mormonism back in the 1970s and was completely trusting of its claims, the Lord broke in and gave me a vision which I share below:

    I was taken away in the Spirit to a large building the size of one of those majestic cathedrals that characterise the great cities of Europe. In outward appearance the building appeared like a giant version of a typical LDS chapel and I was given to understand that what I was seeing was a representation of the whole Utah Mormon Church.

    The messenger, whose presence I felt but whom I could not see, accompanied me throughout this vision and took me into the building itself. We passed bodily through the walls and I found myself looking upon a scene that caught my breath. Before me were thousands upon thousands of people milling around a long rectangular room filled with pews all facing in a southerly direction.

    The noise emmanating from this great crowd was quite unbearable and I at once thought of Babel. For people were talking loudly to each other, some shouting, and some physically attacking one another. The scene was of utter chaos. As I looked at specific people I could see some smoking, others drinking alcohol, and many were swearing in the vilest of language. In some I could see the spirit of adultery and lasciviousness. Indeed, there seemed to be represented in this people all manner of sin and evil.

    I then noticed a low brick wall, about three feet high, which divided this unholy throng from another portion of the building, and that it ran from north to south. I found myself standing back in the Spirit and became aware that in area this room occupied a full 50% of the whole of the building. As I looked upon this rabble in amazement and disbelief I heard the voice of the Lord saying very clearly to me, "THIS IS THE TELESTIAL PORTION OF THE [MORMON] CHURCH." (In the Mormon system, "telestial" means the lowest degree of glory. When referring to the earth and its inhabitants, it refers to those who are unbelievers and the unsaved).

    I was then taken across the low dividing wall into another portion of the building to a room about the same size as the one I had just left behind but marginally smaller, perhaps occupying some 45-48% of the whole. Here my eyes were greeted by a quite different scene. Row upon row of neatly dressed and respectable people were sitting in pews facing in a northerly direction and apparently listening to a talk or sermon, though I could not at this moment see the person to whom they were giving their attention as I was standing a few yards in front of the podium and to one side, looking at the congregation in front of me at a slight angle.

    I saw fathers, mothers and children in their best Sunday clothes sitting in a quiet, orderly, and reverent manner as was expected of good Latter-day Saints and in perfect reflection of the image usually portrayed to the world in literature and through other media. A feeling of satisfaction came over me and I at once began to feel at home. "Ah!" I thought to myself, "THESE are the Lord's people."

    Immediately this thought had come to my mind the voice of the Lord came again, saying, "NOT SO, MY SON, THIS IS THE TERRESTRIAL PORTION OF THE [MORMON] CHURCH." (In the Mormon system, "terrestrial" is the second degree of glory. When referring to the earth and its inhabitants, it refers to those who are honourable but who are tricked by the craftiness of Satan. They are therefore those with wrong belief).

    I immediately turned around to where I thought the voice had come from and there at the podium, to my amazement and great shock, I saw a minister from the Lutheran Church delivering a sermon to the saints whilst fully bedecked in a long flowing cassock and wearing the traditional white ruffle around his neck.

    I could not believe my eyes nor understand why a minister of a supposedly "apostate" church (from the Mormon point-of-view) was addressing what I supposed was a congregation of the "one and only true church". At the time I assumed that that this man was a symbol of the spirit of priestcraft and apostacy that had by some means (unknown to me then) seized the Mormon Church, a priestcraft and apostacy that the saints were either indifferent or blind to. I have since understood this to be a symbolic usage indicating that the very apostacy the Mormons supposed the Lutherans to be gripped by, they were gripped by themselves.

    To the side of the podium and stand I spotted a curtain which I perceived was concealing a small door. I at once found myself being drawn away from this typical Mormon scene and towards this door which I passed through bodily as I had done earlier through the masonry of the building from the outside. I found myself standing in a small room no larger in area than 2-3% of the giant building.

    Inside the little room were several people wandering around in a state of mild confusion as though blindfolded. They were all trying to sing a hymn but could not do so in harmony because no-one seemed to be aware of anyone else and all were trying to sing different hymns simultaneously. It was not especially noisy for there was a gentle spirit among these people. Quite suddenly there was the sound as of wind rushing through the room and those people who had seemingly been totally unaware of each other up until then, saw one another for the first time. Every man and woman turned to face in an easterly direction and immediately began to sing the most beautiful hymn of praise and adoration that I had ever heard. I was filled with unspeakable joy and an overwhelming peace. And the voice of the Lord came to me for the third, and last, time, saying, "THIS IS THE CELESTIAL PORTION OF THE [MORMON] CHURCH. THESE ARE THEY WHO ARE REDEEMED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB." (In the Mormon sysetem, the Celestial is the highest degree of glory, where the Mormon "gods" dwell. When referring to the earth and its inhabitants, it usually refers to those who are true and faithful to the Mormon Church. But here I was shown that those who were truly saved in the blood of Christ were not those of the Mormon system, which was represented by the "terrestrial" group, but those outside the system who were seeking after Christ and the Holy Spirit apart from from the system.)

    Thus I was shown in this vision those who were saved in the Mormon Church and those who were not. Bearing in mind that there are over 10 million Mormons world-wide, this means that (based on this statistic, which by now is probably out-of-date) 5 million of them are complete and utter pagans simply living an outward form of religion, and just under 5 million sincerely believe in and live by a false religious system which brings no salvation. The remainder, some 200,000 to 300,000 Latter-day Saints who, while members of the Mormon organisation, have met the living Christ in some way and are desperately seeking for a spiritual endowment. It is this remnant of the LDS system whom I believe will come out of Mormonism and be baptised in the Holy Spirit and fire. It is principally these whom New Covenant Christians are seeking, for they will respond to the New Testament Gospel and be saved.

    The vision closed as suddenly as it had opened and a second one opened to view. This time I was standing outside a normal size LDS chapel. I walked through the glass doors and into the lobby. Laughter and conversation was coming from one of the rooms into which I walked. There in front of me I saw about a dozen long tables prepared with food fit for a king. The saints, most of whom I knew from my local congregation in Oxford, were sitting around these tables happily chattering and laughing. All seemed to be the model of normality and good cheer.

    I was then struck by the fact that nobody had eaten any of the food. "Why haven't you eaten anything?" I asked them in surprise. "Look, the Lord has provided you with a banquet. Feast on His Word!" Blank faces looked up at me as though I were mad and then resumed their conversation as before. My heart was filled with great pain for I realised that the saints were not partaking of the gifts the Lord had prepared for them. Knowing that they would not listen to me, I departeed from their midst heavy of heart.

    From the corridor or lobby which I had re-entered I heard a commotion coming from somewhere above me. I climbed the stairs to investigate the disturbance and entered a room where I found two church leaders exchanging angry words whilst several others watched on. The anger at length gave way to physical violence as the two men exchanged blows. The onlookers, instead of trying to intervene to restore peace, egged the contestants on. A frenzy seemed to grip all those in the room and it became evident that they were spoiling for blood. Amongst those who ought to have brought the commotion to an end were bishops, a stake president and even some LDS apostles, whom I recognised from the photographs I had previously seen in church magazines. At length all present were drawn into the fracas until the scene degenerated into a riot and blood was spilled. Unable to watch this horrible picture any more, I turned and left feeling quite ill and departed from the building. The second vision then closed.

    I pondered this vision for many weeks afterwards and shared it with one or two whom I was close to in the church. I was, as a said, a newly baptised member and had no cause to think anything but good about the spiritual family I had so eagerly embraced. I knew also that this vision was from God and that I could not deny it. It was only after several months of membership in this religious organisation that I began to see the fruits of apostacy portrayed so vividly in the two visions which was to eventually lead me into spiritual confrontation with the church culminating in my expulsion for my unwillingness to sustain the apostacy the Lord had symbollically portrayed in vision to me.

    As time wore on I came to understand that the 2-3% of the saints in that small room represented those who belonged to the heavenly Church of the Firstborn which had not, at that time, been restored in its outward manifestation upon the earth. These celestial saints were unorganised and for the most part unaware of each other. They are those who belong to spiritual Israel whom the Lord is now gathering out into this New Covenant, even the New Covenant Church of God. May the Lord bless those of spiritual Israel, even those who are saved in the Restoration churches, with the spirit of revelation, for He is calling them from their mother churches and into the pure and undefiled Bride of Christ which is the promise made to those who will embrace the New and Everlasting Covenant in its fullness, and not the man-made system that exists today.

    This testimony is given first and foremost to those of the Mormon Church who belong to New Israel but also to those of the same family scattered in other Restoration bodies such as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    I share this vision with our LDS readers here as it is not published in our book of revelations, the Olive Branch. May glory, honour, power and might be ascribed to our God, for He is full of mercy, justice, grace, truth and peace, for ever and ever. Amen.

    This page was created on 12 June 2000
    Updated on 10 March 2001

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