You raise complex issues here. Christians (I can't speak for all theists or for different religions) are humans with weaknesses to overcome. The 'heavy' type of deliverance work you speak of is not, moreover, for amateurs. There are very real dangers. But at the same time everyone can play a part since the best kind of ministry always involves a group, as in any community situation. As Christians we do not in any case view the most experienced or spiritually strongest as the "best" since we none of us have anything ultimately to boast of other than the cross of the one who empowers those who by faith serve and minister. as for going after the "weak stragglers" of the occult, I believe you are over-simplifying. We help whoever wants help, 'big' or 'small'. Also realise that whilst the world may view certain people as 'big' or 'small', Yah'shua views everyone as being equally important. Who, in any case, are the 'big' people in the occult? Those who have, as a rule, chosen to sin more and as a result get greater demonic empowerment. The 'bigness' of those in bondage is a function of what is in them, not what they 'are'.

You also have to realise that the bottom line in both evangelism and deliverance is free agency. People who don't want to be converted or who don't want to be delivered cannot be forced, however 'big' or 'small' they may be perceived as. What the world regards as 'small' or 'dross' can in any case become 'big' because of Who they allow into themselves. So really, Joshua, it all depends with what lens you view these things. There is no conscious attempt by genuine believers (and I stress the word 'genuine' and not the fake Christians) to 'target' certain categories of the unsaved or those in need of deliverance. In fact, there should be no 'targeting' at all. We simply minister to those whom Yahweh sends to us and give what we have. Nothing more. All kinds of people who 'crossed my path' when I was an atheist were instrumental in nudging me to a point of faith whereby I was enabled to trust and experience the salvation of Messiah. The few who tried to 'force' or 'pressurise' me actually turned me off and slowed things down for the gospel is by attraction, not compulsion.

As to why some believers are taught to cower away from those who have demonic issues, that again is complex. People fear the unknown. They are also conditioned by false teachings. Or they just don't care or love enough because their focus is on what the enemy has done instead of what the Saviour can do. That is a part of the human condition. And, yes, deliverance is initially scary, seeing malevolent supernatural forces for the first time - they do send shivers up your spine until you witness a Greater Power subduing them, and then your fear is relieved. I have seen things most would regard as impossible because their minds are constrained by their world view. I myself initially steered away from this kind of ministry for whatever reasons. What more can I say?

Do people fall away? All the time. Why? For many reasons. Their hearts fail them. Why? Often it is because they sin and refuse to repent. Or their faith is weak - just as we must physically grow up and mature, so we must do the same spiritually. and the fact that a person is an adult in the flesh does not automatically mean than they are adult in the spirit. I have seen children with adult faith.

As to what people 'deserve', this also is complex. Can any one of us see into the heart of another and know it fully enough to be able to honestly say what that person 'deserves'? I myself am not a hellfire-and-brimstone preacher even though I absolutely know that hell exists and I don't believe in frightening people into faith, because such a 'conversion' will always be flawed. True conversion only comes about by a genuine encounter with the love of Elohim (God). It is not a mental thing even if the mind is hugely expanded as a result of that encounter. Unlike a lot of preachers I also believe in the absolute justice of Yahweh, that those, for whatever reasons, who do not have the 'opportunity' to hear the Gospel (an who truthfully can define what that 'opportunity' is), Yahweh judges on the basis of His omniscient knowledge as to what they would have chosen given ideal circumstances. I say this in recognition that too many ministers actually drive people away because they do not know or have the knowledge of the love of Yahweh. I think many are prejudiced against the truth because of the bad example of such people - I know I was.

This is why our biggest soul winning event happens on Oct. 30 &31 we call it "Tract w/ Treat.

Tables are set up with candy and Gospel comics, Bibles, coloring books... The main literature is Chick tracts they have led countless souls to Christ includings mine. The kids get all the candy they can handle and the it almost seems doldrum, but when they see the comics they get really excited. Churuches can also put out info about their org. To take a look at Chick- www.chick.com We also go out into the street yelling "free comics" the kids come running and this leaves more folk to operate the tract with treat table. Those who can't do either one of these can stay home and pass out tracts to the costumed ones that comes to their home. Amplifying the effect of the two other outreaches.

Here in America this is the only event of the year when folk come around in mass numbers looking for YOU yo put something in theur hand-GIVE 'EM THE GOSPEL!!!

Take the main satanic holiday and turn it into a revival for our LORD and Saviour JESUS Who is The CHRIST!!!! Shabbat Shalom

I guess what I am comparing are amateurs in the occult and amateurs Christians. Amateur Occultists can cause a great deal of trouble, for themselves and if they so chose Christians of all strengths. By this, I mean new Christians are obviously not as strong as a pastor or deacon of a church and so on... People new to the occult world are encouraged to tear down any non-occultist, and often do so. If we compare it to the Christians in the United States, even those who have been "saved" for 10 or 15 years flee from those in the occult. Often these occultists have not acted menacingly if they have done anything but stand there silently. I guess what I am getting at is that it would seem that Christians are powerless followers of the supposedly the almighty being, and they are charged with spreading the gospel to the entire world so that all might hear of god and be saved. If these people are not, through god's will, empowered to evangelize to everyone every possible opportunity they have available.
If one truly KNEW the depravities of hell, wouldn't those in the KNOW be doing all they can every second of their lives to bring people to Christ? It seems to me that most Christians "believe" in hell, but it is not real enough for them to do everything in their power to avoid going there and also to bring their friends and neighbors not to mention those duped into worshiping ultimate destruction. To me it seems like Christians whom become saved, then sit back relax knowing they are safe, are front row observers around the pits of hell. They seem to sit their and watch and demons lead people into these pits. All anyone of these “Christians” would have to do it reach out a minister to those that pass by their seat and they could save some of these people from plummeting to eternal damnation. Sadly, I must say that the Christians I run into throw up a half hearted attempt and give up if they do anything at all.
We could compare it to a car accident in which the accidents victims will surely perish. A safe bystander has the ability to save those people trapped in the car and about to die, but the bystander is to self absorbed in his/her own comfort zone to save any of the accident victims. Are the accident victims worth saving? Might it require a little more effort and time that the bystander would like to give up? If so, is it worth it? I would hope that this thinly veiled example one might see that I am comparing the accident victims to the unsaved and those bystanders are saved Christians. One might complain that this work is best suited for emergency workers, and in response I ask were all the Emergency workers (i.e. extremely strong Christians dedicated to the ‘heavy’ work). To date I can honestly say I have never met one, and I have been searching feverishly for quite some time.
Times are changing and those involved in the occult are upping the warfare. I have my ear to the ground, and these people are looking to bind malicious demons to everyday objects. The one that utterly shocks me are those that are binding demons to themselves with permanent tattoos. These are reserved for only the strongest in the occult, as these types of tattoos exact a price for the service they provide. It concerns me that as time goes on Christians are loosing the will and ability to bring more to Christ. I don’t think that preaching hellfire and brimstone is an effective way to motivate complacent Christians. Usually it takes a person being thrust into the spirit world to see with their own eyes for them to understand what is at stake. Short of this, these Christians are no threat to those whom carry more to the pits of hell, if they aren’t being carried with those on the way to hell.
I would love to take the opportunity to discuss those that are damned to hell from birth, because god created them without the opportunity to come to know him, but I think that in itself would require its own discussion group.

I see nothing wrong with turning Halloween around on the enemy. I do see something wrong, though, with having your children actively participate in the day.

Do you get a lot of persecution for what you do? Has a parent complained? I know Chick tracts can be brutally honest.

You wrestle over many serious and important issues and a fully empathise. I don't believe anyone is damned by Yahweh from birth - we may be encumbered with a sinful nature from birth but we all have a genuine opportunity to make it to heaven. I am not a Calvinist. My Yom Kippur sermon addresses some of the issues you raise here. And again, some of your observations about modern Christians are accurate.

Empowerment of believers is a function of faith and obedience and there is precious lack of both. As a result there are few who seem to come to maturity, preferring the false comfort of remaining spiritually infants. I do believe that Yahweh is just, that He condemns no one who has not had the opportunity to hear the Gospel from a witness, judging the heart of everyone based on His omniscience, knowing what everyone would choose in "ideal" circumstances. I do not believe another person's salvation is a function of my faithfulness or lack of it, otherwise salvation would then become a function of the works of others. our desire to serve and witness on behalf of the unsaved is our opportunity to grow in character and love (which is one of the reasons we are down here) as well as being the opportunity for the unsaved too. The equation is so large and complex and yet is not entirely beyond the grasp of our comprehension. It is possible to understand many why's and to build faith around that. However you view the issue of salvation, witness, hell, etc., it is possible to see that there is a maturation process constantly in action, that delays, hindrances, oppositions, sufferings, and much else besides force us ti struggle which is a part of that growth process. Our struggles make us appreciate the good things when we get them and teach us that inactivity and indifference serve the interests of no one. Darwin was right about the struggle but did not see a purpose and a goal. It IS tough. But like those who choose to join the Marines because of the prestige, so we too, I believe, chose to be here because we were shown the fruits of the struggle if we endured. The rest elected to be angels, and have a guaranteed outcome but with slightly lesser rewards.

Something tells me, in reading what you write, that you are not entirely the atheist that you say you are :)

Joshua Theobald said:

I guess what I am comparing are amateurs in the occult and amateurs Christians. Amateur Occultists can cause a great deal of trouble, for themselves and if they so chose Christians of all strengths. By this, I mean new Christians are obviously not as strong as a pastor or deacon of a church and so on... People new to the occult world are encouraged to tear down any non-occultist, and often do so. If we compare it to the Christians in the United States, even those who have been "saved" for 10 or 15 years flee from those in the occult. Often these occultists have not acted menacingly if they have done anything but stand there silently. I guess what I am getting at is that it would seem that Christians are powerless followers of the supposedly the almighty being, and they are charged with spreading the gospel to the entire world so that all might hear of god and be saved. If these people are not, through god's will, empowered to evangelize to everyone every possible opportunity they have available.
If one truly KNEW the depravities of hell, wouldn't those in the KNOW be doing all they can every second of their lives to bring people to Christ? It seems to me that most Christians "believe" in hell, but it is not real enough for them to do everything in their power to avoid going there and also to bring their friends and neighbors not to mention those duped into worshiping ultimate destruction. To me it seems like Christians whom become saved, then sit back relax knowing they are safe, are front row observers around the pits of hell. They seem to sit their and watch and demons lead people into these pits. All anyone of these “Christians” would have to do it reach out a minister to those that pass by their seat and they could save some of these people from plummeting to eternal damnation. Sadly, I must say that the Christians I run into throw up a half hearted attempt and give up if they do anything at all.
We could compare it to a car accident in which the accidents victims will surely perish. A safe bystander has the ability to save those people trapped in the car and about to die, but the bystander is to self absorbed in his/her own comfort zone to save any of the accident victims. Are the accident victims worth saving? Might it require a little more effort and time that the bystander would like to give up? If so, is it worth it? I would hope that this thinly veiled example one might see that I am comparing the accident victims to the unsaved and those bystanders are saved Christians. One might complain that this work is best suited for emergency workers, and in response I ask were all the Emergency workers (i.e. extremely strong Christians dedicated to the ‘heavy’ work). To date I can honestly say I have never met one, and I have been searching feverishly for quite some time.
Times are changing and those involved in the occult are upping the warfare. I have my ear to the ground, and these people are looking to bind malicious demons to everyday objects. The one that utterly shocks me are those that are binding demons to themselves with permanent tattoos. These are reserved for only the strongest in the occult, as these types of tattoos exact a price for the service they provide. It concerns me that as time goes on Christians are loosing the will and ability to bring more to Christ. I don’t think that preaching hellfire and brimstone is an effective way to motivate complacent Christians. Usually it takes a person being thrust into the spirit world to see with their own eyes for them to understand what is at stake. Short of this, these Christians are no threat to those whom carry more to the pits of hell, if they aren’t being carried with those on the way to hell.
I would love to take the opportunity to discuss those that are damned to hell from birth, because god created them without the opportunity to come to know him, but I think that in itself would require its own discussion group.

Yes you do raise a valid objection in questioning my atheism. I have come to the conclusion that I am an atheist because I have run out of anything else I can be. After spending 16 years and many many churches searching for god I have come to conclude 2 things:

1. If there is a god he has silently ignored me for 16 years, and therefore wants nothing to do with me.

2. If this so called god exists he is as sadistic as the satan he claims to dispise.

So from those 2 statements I have concluded either I am predestined to end up in hell or there is no god. Rather than accepting damnation in hell I choose to bet on their being no god. Either way I'm screwed so I chose the lesser of 2 evils.

My friend, whilst by no means wanting to patronise you, may I simply say that I have met many people who arrived at conclusions similar to your own who had somewhere along the line made erroneous assumptions about the nature and person of the true Elohim - who thought as you do that they were being ignored but who, even after many, many, years made the breakthrough they all along wanted and met Him for real and had their life changed around diametrically. So I urge you not to give up. There absolutely is a Third Way and you won't find it in either people or churches. Moreover, they have been surprised to discover that Yahweh was right next to them the whole time and that the only reason they could not seen Him was because they had made choices that blinded them to His actual presence. I do assure you that he is there and He is not remotely as you have conceived Him.

Joshua Theobald said:

Yes you do raise a valid objection in questioning my atheism. I have come to the conclusion that I am an atheist because I have run out of anything else I can be. After spending 16 years and many many churches searching for god I have come to conclude 2 things:
1. If there is a god he has silently ignored me for 16 years, and therefore wants nothing to do with me.
2. If this so called god exists he is as sadistic as the satan he claims to dispise.

So from those 2 statements I have concluded either I am predestined to end up in hell or there is no god. Rather than accepting damnation in hell I choose to bet on their being no god. Either way I'm screwed so I chose the lesser of 2 evils.

I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. I've spent hours and hours at alters asking for him to come into my life. In return, eventually everyone that prays with me tells me "maybe next time" and gives up. After 16 years of that I decided to see what the "occult" was like. The day I started I got immediate results. I got deep enough into it that I use to piggy back unclean spirits into churches to see if ministers would even notice the different. You'd be amazed that these "demons" can stand the name of Jesus, they can stand being prayed for at alters too. I tested every barrier that christians claimed "demons" could not abide by. Well I guess thats not entirely true, I should piggy back one in to a catholic church and see if holy water has an affect, but I doubt it will. What amazes me more than these unclean spirits is a christian's inablity to even recognize that one is among them. I've tried every which way possible, in methodical patient order to garner any response from "god". I devour more christian literature that most "christians" even to this day. It's unfortunate that most of this stuff holds fundamental flaws that make it ineffective to those with a decent head on their shoulders. Sure this stuff is great for those withthe sheep mentality, but what about those of us who live and breathe as leaders independent thinkers and those whom strive to break new ground? I continually challenge anyone and everyone to just show me that god is real.v I realize that othis is basically a flawed proposal, as god has to call one to be one of his chosen, but he either speaks in a tone I can't hear or not at all. If he did want to allow me in his "graces" then he knows what tone to speak so that I might hear, and just chooses not to. As I said before he choses not to accept me, as I am the one who has raised a great hammer to bang upon his door. If anyone resides on the other side of the door they cannot help but to hear me knocking, as I refuse to not be heard ever knocking more frequently, ever louder and with more force. I figure I will eventually knock the door down and walk in and see what I have suspeccted all along, that no god actually exists.

If there are dark powers, as you have quite clearly discovered, then logically there must be light ones too. Even occultists acknowledge that.

You will discover that your "hammer" is not as big as you think :) Besides, it is Yah'shua who is knocking on the door of your heart, and it is He who is seeking entrance in - not by your merely repeating words in a liturgical fashion, and certainly not with your heart closed. You will discover that He has been speaking all the time, but that you have not been listening... or have been deafened by the pounding of that hammer of yours ;) Devouring Christian literature won't help either. All He wants is your unconditional surrender - in cluding your giving up any notion that you're a "leader" with a priori "rights" or some intellectual giant free-thinker - your brain has but a single byte's capacity to His own. When you have learned humility, and have stopped dictating the terms, then you'll hear - guaranteed :)

Joshua Theobald said:

I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. I've spent hours and hours at alters asking for him to come into my life. In return, eventually everyone that prays with me tells me "maybe next time" and gives up. After 16 years of that I decided to see what the "occult" was like. The day I started I got immediate results. I got deep enough into it that I use to piggy back unclean spirits into churches to see if ministers would even notice the different. You'd be amazed that these "demons" can stand the name of Jesus, they can stand being prayed for at alters too. I tested every barrier that christians claimed "demons" could not abide by. Well I guess thats not entirely true, I should piggy back one in to a catholic church and see if holy water has an affect, but I doubt it will. What amazes me more than these unclean spirits is a christian's inablity to even recognize that one is among them. I've tried every which way possible, in methodical patient order to garner any response from "god". I devour more christian literature that most "christians" even to this day. It's unfortunate that most of this stuff holds fundamental flaws that make it ineffective to those with a decent head on their shoulders. Sure this stuff is great for those withthe sheep mentality, but what about those of us who live and breathe as leaders independent thinkers and those whom strive to break new ground? I continually challenge anyone and everyone to just show me that god is real.v I realize that othis is basically a flawed proposal, as god has to call one to be one of his chosen, but he either speaks in a tone I can't hear or not at all. If he did want to allow me in his "graces" then he knows what tone to speak so that I might hear, and just chooses not to. As I said before he choses not to accept me, as I am the one who has raised a great hammer to bang upon his door. If anyone resides on the other side of the door they cannot help but to hear me knocking, as I refuse to not be heard ever knocking more frequently, ever louder and with more force. I figure I will eventually knock the door down and walk in and see what I have suspeccted all along, that no god actually exists.

Shalom Joshua,

I just wanted to encourage you! You actually are in the hands of Yahweh right now! I am not saying that you have given your heart and life to Him, but I do know that none of us come to Him, unless HE draws us, and it is so obvious that He is drawing you. A.W. Tozer spoke of how we search and search and search for Yahweh, only to discover that all the time He was right there, holding our hand, drawing us, trying to lead us to Himself.

If you were a true atheist, this group would not even interest you, you would think us all morons and be on your way, but I believe that Yahweh has you here for a purpose. :) There is nothing in our natural man that would remotely desire to know Yahweh, so the fact that we are drawn to Him is proof that the Ruach is working and moving in our lives. Sometimes it is much easier to remain angry and skeptical than it is to dare to risk believing, and certainly to dare to risk laying our lives down in full surrender.

You ARE loved by the Creator of the Universe and He is not as far as you might believe. I am so glad that you are a part of this group, your honesty is a blessing and Yahweh does know you and desires that you know Him, even now.

Be blessed my brother! He IS moving!


Joshua Theobald said:

I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. I've spent hours and hours at alters asking for him to come into my life. In return, eventually everyone that prays with me tells me "maybe next time" and gives up. After 16 years of that I decided to see what the "occult" was like. The day I started I got immediate results. I got deep enough into it that I use to piggy back unclean spirits into churches to see if ministers would even notice the different. You'd be amazed that these "demons" can stand the name of Jesus, they can stand being prayed for at alters too. I tested every barrier that christians claimed "demons" could not abide by. Well I guess thats not entirely true, I should piggy back one in to a catholic church and see if holy water has an affect, but I doubt it will. What amazes me more than these unclean spirits is a christian's inablity to even recognize that one is among them. I've tried every which way possible, in methodical patient order to garner any response from "god". I devour more christian literature that most "christians" even to this day. It's unfortunate that most of this stuff holds fundamental flaws that make it ineffective to those with a decent head on their shoulders. Sure this stuff is great for those withthe sheep mentality, but what about those of us who live and breathe as leaders independent thinkers and those whom strive to break new ground? I continually challenge anyone and everyone to just show me that god is real.v I realize that othis is basically a flawed proposal, as god has to call one to be one of his chosen, but he either speaks in a tone I can't hear or not at all. If he did want to allow me in his "graces" then he knows what tone to speak so that I might hear, and just chooses not to. As I said before he choses not to accept me, as I am the one who has raised a great hammer to bang upon his door. If anyone resides on the other side of the door they cannot help but to hear me knocking, as I refuse to not be heard ever knocking more frequently, ever louder and with more force. I figure I will eventually knock the door down and walk in and see what I have suspeccted all along, that no god actually exists.

Thank you for the kind words Avah. Lev in no way do I mean this reply to be in anyway harsh. It is just simpler to avoid the political correctness and put my replies bluntly. Again, they are not meant to be inflammatory, it is just how I see Christianity in today’s world. It might have always been this way, but honestly, I do not know.

Many people see two sides in direct opposition. I however completely deviate from this. If a monotheistic god exists then there is no good or evil in this world. Only the will and imagination of that god exists. I go even further by saying that things can be depraved and wrong but they are not evil. Many cruel entities and people abound. These people would become extinct quickly if we operated in an animalistic survival of the fittest way. They are shortsighted egocentric people who are incapable of compassion for others. It is rather a poor plight for these people, because if they had a creator, he surely deprived if not completely despised them.

I suppose I mislead you in regards to my concepts of leadership, independent thinking and breaking new ground.

I will address each of these separately and be clearer this time. First off, I never filled any leadership roles in any occult organizations. In fact, I moved almost as quickly out of the group situation to a solo practice. I also quickly dropped the books I was reading in favor for direct teaching and experimentation with the entities I communicated and worked with. This produced more solid and predictable results. What kind of results you might ask. Simply put, my objective is/was to produce uncontrovertibly spiritual evidence in which those confronted with it must come to an immediate and comprehensive conclusion to the situation. These individuals would have the benefit of knowing if their faith and beliefs are true or are merely a sham in which they have believed for too long. The tool I envision would be used both in occult circles and in others willing to test their faith and beliefs.

All that being said, any conversion from where I am now to some place new obviously gives up any and all leadership roles (if there was any to begin with). Secondly, I really have no desire to lead anyone spiritually. A spiritual walk is developing a relationship with a non-physical being. You cannot lead anyone through developing a relationship; they must choose to nurture and grow their own relationship independently. In developing my own relationship with “god” should there be one, leadership is an irrelevant concept.

Second point I would like to make is that as much as the spiritual realm is about feelings and emotions to get results, the intellect still must be fulfilled. In this reference, in order for me to allow my feelings and emotions to flow properly, I must be convinced that the entity I am going to develop a relationship with, be it god or any other one, represents themselves as one I can align myself with. The fact that “god” holds an elusive position. Supporters claim that this perfect being necessarily created the universe and everyone/thing in it. It must be said that he cares for each one of us and wills us to accept him, but has created us with the free will to not choose him. To see this to be untrue all we must simply do is to evaluate the status quo today. I would really like to know how massacring people in a stadium or a military publicly raping women brings glory to a supernatural being or even brings people to him. I can hear people replying, that this is due to evil in the world. I simply want to know what entity created the propensity for this evil. How can an omnipotent being create subjects capable of atrocities on a heinous scale without first having the thought or enacted himself? One might tend to sluff off this responsibility. If god is the sole creator, did he not create Lucifer with these same propensities? How then can god create a being capable of things god himself has not thought of or enacted? Second point is that if this god necessarily exists outside of time then before he even creates such creatures he knows the goodness or devastation they will create. In essence, he willingly creates beings with the intent of destroying hundreds or millions of lives. All the while, claiming that he cares for every one of us? How many souls must god damn to eternal suffering before he believes a select few have sufficiently freely chosen him over his creation Satan? This appears to me to be a childish popularity contest with eternally painful punishments for those incapable of choosing “the correct” candidate. I would also like to add is a question of being able to think like him or in his capacity/. Why is it so difficult to imagine the human mind of understanding the mind of god? I am not sure why this is so objectionable or impossible.

Lastly, I do not proclaim to want to be the one to continually break new ground it just seems to be what happens in my life. Everywhere I go and many things I do continually break the mold or stereotype of what or how something should be done. I also have the luck, for lack of a better term, being largely successful. It might be due to my ability and willingness to accept set backs or failures and to learn and move on from them. Either way, breaking new ground is synonymous with me traveling in any direction I should set out on, regardless if I intend to or not. Often it is not my intention, but I still accomplish the task of doing so.

Anyway we have gotten off the subject. Are there any implemented solutions to my original questions? Or is christianity as a whole just dying from apethetic followers?