I think this is a classical example of lumping all types of believer into a single negative category because of the bad things that many have undoubtedly done in the name of Torah-less "Christianity" over the centuries. However, is this justified? IMO, no - absolutely not. When I see all the bad Messianics around - and there are plenty of them - then by the same logic, why should I not regard all Messianics as being 'bad´? These are, after all, just labels.

The Aramaic text of the New Testament at Acts 26:28 reads:

"Agrippa said to [Sha'ul/Paul], You are nearly persuading me to become a Krist'yana" (HRV).

Krist'yana is the Aramaic transliteration of the Greek 'Christianoi' (English, 'Christian') so presumably Agrippa was speaking in Greek to Paul. When the Aramaic 'Messianic' was translated into Greek, the Greek 'Christian' was used - both mean 'belonging to Messiah/Christ' or simply 'Messiah/Christ-people'. So I see no problem in using either term because they both mean exactly the same thing.

The first time the word is used is in Acts 11:26. Had we been alive at the time and had we been under the British Empire (let's say instead of the Roman), and let's say the British Empire had been pagan, then the British would have called the first believers 'Messiah followers' or 'Christ followers'. This then would have been translated into Greek as 'Christianoi'.

It's possible that believers were called 'Christianoi' in a deprecatory or insulting way like we call people 'Moonies' or 'Mormons' though there's no absolute proof of this. Funnily enough Jews who did not accept Yah'shua as the Messiah started calling Messianics 'Nazarenes' (Notzrim) in exactly the same deprecatory way! And yet lots of Messianics proudly call themselves 'Nazarenes' or 'Notzrim'! Oh dear.

When you analyse this all very carefully the silliness of it becomes readily apparent. Jews who convert to Yah'shua don't all call themselves 'Messianic Jews' - many prefer to call themselved 'Hebrew Christians'.

I must say I find all of this very immature and childish. I am happy to call myself a 'Christian' (in this ministry we call ourselves 'New Covenant Christians') though I often explain that further by calling myself a 'Hebraic-roots Christian' or a 'Torah-observant Christian'. Practically-speaking, is there any difference between a Torah-observant Christian and a Messianic who observes Torah? None that I can see. They both mean exactly the same thing.

This blanket demonising of everything 'Christian' is, to my mind, just a form of élitism, a religious form of 'political correctness' that has been spawned by all the anti-semetic paranoia. The word 'Christian' embraces a HUGE range of beliefs and practices between Russian Orthodox and Charismatic Pentecostal - they're poles apart. Similarly, there is a huge range of Messianics, including those who reject Yah'shua as Elohim/God and those who reject Paul. So quite honestly I am not 100% comfortable with either label ... which is why I guess I am not so dogmatic about their use. I don't give carte blanche to anyone.

Messainics should not be so self-righteous as to look down on all 'christians' and 'churches'. I don't have the slightest doubt that Yahweh is working in a wide range of groups of people who call themselves both 'Christian' and 'Messianic'. I am tired of all the snobbery and chauvanism.

I suspect this hatred of all things 'Christian' is in fact a Jewish gut reaction to the bad things Catholics and some Protestants have done to them over the last two Millennia. One Orthodox Jew once called me a 'Christ-er'. I do not believe it is justified or warranted. 'Christians' have been both good, evil and lukewarm over the centuries just as Messianics are today. And the Jews have their own dark legacy of trying to subvery Christian civilisations. 'Messianics' are not a sort of 'super race' or 'holy brigade'. I have laboured amongst both for a long time and both struggle with basically the same kinds of spiritual issues irrespective of the labels they use. Sin has no respect of flags. To make someone an offender because of a label is not of the Ruach.

I am happy to discuss anything using Messianic or Christian terminology. In worship and personal devotions I use the Hebraic terms because I feel that given my present knowledge that is the best way to honour Yahweh.

Shalom Netzah

Lew White's book was certainly an eye-opener for me though I don't agree with every conclusion.

I guess what troubles me me the most about the "anti-Christian" stance is not being anti-pagan tradition (as I resolutely am - even as a boy when I had no religious belief I knew something was 'wrong' with it) but that fact that in the process the genuine new birth of millions of former unbelievers gets lumped in together with that "anti-Christianity" label. The problem is not so much "Christianity" - people being converted to 'Christ' (= Messiah) but CHURCH-IANITY - all the extra 'religion' that's added on top of the foundational rebirth experience of all true Messianics and Christians. But even the word 'church' (which we know is derived from the pagan 'circe') mustn't be completelyt demonised because for most born-again people a Church is just an assembly, like a Messianic one.

My concern is for the genuine Christians who have received the New Birth and Ruach haQodesh and who assemble to worship with bursting hearts in love with Messiah in 'churches' are not made to feel condemned or their new life in Yah'shua demeaned simply because they are in a false system. We have to be careful and not make people stumble over words. In the same way, there are lots of Messianics who are NOT born again (who is closer to Yahweh - the unregenerated Messianic or the Born-Again Evangelical? Indeed, which is saved? Only one is) and others who follow all sorts of pagan traditions - the use of the Kippa (Lew White exposes that), Jewish Ring Dances (from Sun worship), pagan/occultic drunken festivals like Lag B'Omer which comes from Molech worship, the use of pagan-derived names and titles like Adoni, from the pagan Greek Adonis, etc., etc.. Do any of us have the right to make a blanket condemnation of Messianism, Christianity or the Church? There are errors in all.

YHWH first and foremost judges the heart. He is looking to see if there is a genuine surrender, regeneration and trust - a child-like emunah-faith with an outflowing of His love for people and especiallt for the lost. The details must come afterwards. That's why Yah'shua focussed on the Two Great Commandments - we must start where it matters. Once the foundation is in place (and if it isn't, we should be focussing on nothing else in our evangelism), then we can build on the Ten Commandments. And then, when that is established, build on the rest of the mitzvot.

We discredit our own witness if we pre-judge or maked blanket dismissals of false systems where true believers are to be found. The way to reach them is not to come to them with a haughty look of superiority based on our own adherence to Torah but to recognise YHWH working in them, praise them for that, and work with them. It's the same love of Elohim in their hearts that we have. They are merely blinded to more truth by false tradition.

Labels bring with them suspicion and handicaps to fellowship. That is why I call myself both Messianic and Christian - and I am. I can fellowship with born-again Christians without any problem. I won't celebrate their pagan feasts with them and if they ask, I politely explain why.

Just as a big effort has been made by you and some others in YahSpace to get peace restored (which I think was a wonderful effort, by the way) so I feel strongly called by YHWH to establish a common base with evangelicals who have genuinely been born again and who want to walk in set-apartness/holiness. There are different resistances and openings - in fact I notice a mellowing amongst many Baptists respecting the feasts. I have contact with RBC (Radio Bible Class) Ministries and I see they are gradually opening doors there. YHWH is working. And I believe His vision of the future is not exactly as most Messianics think it is going to be. There's still a lot of junk to be shed.

I certainly believe in Restoration - it's a gradual process with people along different stretches of the Way. I see born-again evangelicals on that same road as my brothers and sisters in Messiah.

Thanks for sharing, sister.




Netzah said:

Netzah said:

They probably booted you because many Messianics, or Netzarim, as some like to be called, believe that christianity is the "roman religion", being basically derived from Constantine's combination of the religions of his kingdom (pagan & nazarenes). If you can get a copy of Lew White's book "Fossilized Customs", there is a lot of information in there that expounds on this topic. Let me warn you, though, the organization isn't the best, and he doesn't site very many sources, which I have a problem with, since that fact makes it hard for me to use as a teaching tool. Other than those two complaints, I really advocate the book, for those who are serious seekers and aren't queasy (there's a lot of myth busting, tradition smashing information in this book). I hope that helps. I will reply some more later when I have more time.

What Lew does in this book is trace many of our modern day customs and traditions back to their pagan origins. Most of the traditions and customs practiced by modern day christianity actually do have pagan origins. It's funny, because many pagans and wiccans laugh at modern day christians because they (the christians) are actually celebrating pagan hoilidays (x-mas, easter, etc) without even knowing it. There's a scripture that I read once, and can't find it again, but it reminds me of this, of what I am saying to you now, and it says something about the children of this world being wiser than the children of Y'israel (us). It is basically an admonishing scripture, about our need to study and be aware. Maybe Christopher can recall the verse I am referring to. I really wish I knew where it is. But anyway, a lot of people in this movement consider themselves as having "come out" of christianity, I myself being one of them. However, I am not against those who still practice that religion, my best friend is a christian. I am just opposed to the religion itself, now that I have been informed of the origins of the modern version.

I talk about this a lot, about how Abba is revealing and restoring more and more to those of us who are His called-out, set-apart, fore-ordained children. I think it is ALWAYS wrong to attack one another, and close ourselves off from one another. Avah, I am always 100% willing to talk to you about anything at all, because I sense that you are a pure heart, a true believer and seeker of the Ways and the Will of YHWH.

I love how we all grow. I love learning new things about His Truth, and I love digging and searching for treasure, the treasure of Truth. "For when He, the spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into ALL Truth..." Yoh. 16:13.

I also try to make it a practice not to camp out on the Truths and Revelations given, or to take someones word for it. I believe it is honorable to search out a matter. My favorite scripture is 1 Yoh. 2:27, "The annointing that you recieved from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as that same annointing teaches you about ALL things and is real, you REMAIN IN HIM." I believe this, and I study things, and search them out as I come across them.

I am truly sorry that you encountered negativity and that you were rejected. This is the thing that pushes others away from Truth instead of drawing them toward it. I wrote something on Israeli Place and reposted it on True Name that addresses this issue. That is, the lack of Love across these networks. However, you are proof that not everyone is rotten...

Thanks for not being afraid to talk about whatever arises. You are truly a beauty (inside and out).

Your sister~~Netzah

Shalom Netzah and thanks for sharing. I will for sure check out that book, we actually have it I think. As for not being afraid to talk or ask questions, heck,lol, I don't pretend to know anything, I am truly a novice to the Messianic teachings, so what do I have to lose but a little pride maybe, and eh,that needs to die anyhow.

There is so much to learn and I find the prospect exciting, it's just when I visit other Messianic sites and read all the name calling and in some cases down right hating, it just makes me feel sick inside. Oh, I did read your post in the other ning site, it was great and I completely agree with you, actually I have loved your heart since the first time I met you online.

So we move forward in Him and He will lead us into all truth. There are no agendas here, I just love Him and want to know all that He is and I want others who don't know Him to meet Him. Again, thank you for sharing.

Much luv to you my sister,
Avah






Netzah said:

Netzah said:

They probably booted you because many Messianics, or Netzarim, as some like to be called, believe that christianity is the "roman religion", being basically derived from Constantine's combination of the religions of his kingdom (pagan & nazarenes). If you can get a copy of Lew White's book "Fossilized Customs", there is a lot of information in there that expounds on this topic. Let me warn you, though, the organization isn't the best, and he doesn't site very many sources, which I have a problem with, since that fact makes it hard for me to use as a teaching tool. Other than those two complaints, I really advocate the book, for those who are serious seekers and aren't queasy (there's a lot of myth busting, tradition smashing information in this book). I hope that helps. I will reply some more later when I have more time.

What Lew does in this book is trace many of our modern day customs and traditions back to their pagan origins. Most of the traditions and customs practiced by modern day christianity actually do have pagan origins. It's funny, because many pagans and wiccans laugh at modern day christians because they (the christians) are actually celebrating pagan hoilidays (x-mas, easter, etc) without even knowing it. There's a scripture that I read once, and can't find it again, but it reminds me of this, of what I am saying to you now, and it says something about the children of this world being wiser than the children of Y'israel (us). It is basically an admonishing scripture, about our need to study and be aware. Maybe Christopher can recall the verse I am referring to. I really wish I knew where it is. But anyway, a lot of people in this movement consider themselves as having "come out" of christianity, I myself being one of them. However, I am not against those who still practice that religion, my best friend is a christian. I am just opposed to the religion itself, now that I have been informed of the origins of the modern version.

I talk about this a lot, about how Abba is revealing and restoring more and more to those of us who are His called-out, set-apart, fore-ordained children. I think it is ALWAYS wrong to attack one another, and close ourselves off from one another. Avah, I am always 100% willing to talk to you about anything at all, because I sense that you are a pure heart, a true believer and seeker of the Ways and the Will of YHWH.

I love how we all grow. I love learning new things about His Truth, and I love digging and searching for treasure, the treasure of Truth. "For when He, the spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into ALL Truth..." Yoh. 16:13.

I also try to make it a practice not to camp out on the Truths and Revelations given, or to take someones word for it. I believe it is honorable to search out a matter. My favorite scripture is 1 Yoh. 2:27, "The annointing that you recieved from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as that same annointing teaches you about ALL things and is real, you REMAIN IN HIM." I believe this, and I study things, and search them out as I come across them.

I am truly sorry that you encountered negativity and that you were rejected. This is the thing that pushes others away from Truth instead of drawing them toward it. I wrote something on Israeli Place and reposted it on True Name that addresses this issue. That is, the lack of Love across these networks. However, you are proof that not everyone is rotten...

Thanks for not being afraid to talk about whatever arises. You are truly a beauty (inside and out).

Your sister~~Netzah

As an illustration of the kind of influence we are trying to have on evangelical Christians, view the article below which extensively cites material I have written (just do a search on nccg):

http://www.tiu.edu/files/college/christianministries/krause01.pdf

It doesn't, of course, go nearly far enough but it is pointing evangelicals in the right direction. At least they are beginning to realise that they are without a proper foundation without the Tanakh.

Apart from some reservations I have about the Zohar, I agree with you completely. Animate the Messianic Movement with this attitude and it will become an unquenchable fire. But there is much purging yet to be done. I see it coming. The Ruach is blowing relentlessly now so it behooves us to get our roots deep into the soul of love otherwise our magnificent, flowery and fruit-laden Torah-bough displays will count for nothing. Better a plain tree with deep love-roots than a squawking poppinjay.

I thought that rather than have a discussion on Zohar here I would start a new Group to discuss it and related materials on mysticism:

Biblical Mysticism Group

Amen and Amen to both the last posts. To say or imply that all Christianity was some giant 'whore house' before the light and truth of Messianism came is both imbecilic as well as infantile. I do not have the slightest doubt that YHWH has been mightily at work in the antinomian churches and still is sporadically. Like you, Netzah, I have seen so many annointings to be unable to deny the hand of YHWH at work.

I should love to do a study sometime, as time, energy and the need for an anointing to do the same permit.

Without the writings and testimonies of many of my favourite antinonian writers and friends I think I would have died of suffocation in the Messianic movement. It is altogether too narrow in its vision and far too earthy. Not that there's anything wrong with earthiness - one can go to the opposite extreme of being so heavenly-occupied as to be of no earthly use. YHWH made us of spirit and of dust and we are to be fully in both though primarily in spirit.

You can't read the B'rit Chadashah Experience through the experiences of the Tanakh/OT. They're not the same thing - similar and very closely tied, but they are orders of magnitude different. The background, not the foreground, of the NT is Torah. The foreground is MESSIAH and He's so dazzling that you can barely see anything else.

I have long used the analogy of the train to explain my meaning. Yah'shua is the engine, we are the coaches/carriages and Torah is the railway line. Everyone knows that without the railway line you can't run a train. It's essential. BUT it's not what you primarily see - you first of all see the glory of the engine.

My father was a steam-train enthusiast and though I never 'got the enthusiast's bug' I did get a lot of exposure to this hobby of his. Apart from some instructions on different guages and how to repair broken lines, everything mostly centred around the engines.

And that's how it should be. Once the Torah-track has been laid - and you really do have to start there, in a way, it's eyes off the ground and on the Engine! The trouble with most Messianics is that they have their eyes glued to the track and as a result they are missing the main object of everything - Yah'shua Himself, the Greater Glory. That is why the B'rit Chadashah scriptures sing about Him and practically nothing else - Torah is incidental, taken for granted. Even if we should become railway track experts it still would not give us the Engine. We must understand the Engine, its fuel, its power, its strength, its dynamic - because its to the Engine that we're coupled.

Evangelicals know LOTS about the Engine! Messianics know TONS about Torah. Each refer causually to the other's object of focus. It's time for a marriage of the two. All eyes on Yah'shua keeping out feet on the track. And that's what we're about here. That's the vision YHWH has shown me and I mean to follow it.

Some years ago I was standing outside a Lutheran Church in Norway with a view to talking with the members there about the gospel (as you may know, it is very liberal in Scandinavia and is little more than a social/cultural institution for most) when YHWH showed me a vision.

I saw collections of people in groups and they were in darkness. He told me that these were the churches. Among each group were maybe one or two people clothed in light. He told me that they were there to witness of the truth with which they had been endowed, that they were called to remain there until it was time for Him to call them out.

So I agree with you, Shoshanah, there definitely will be a definite time when the veil will draw closed and those who love YHWH and wish to follow Him in all things will either have to choose to leave or remain behind and perish. There is still a witness going on in the churches, YHWH is still using them, but their days are numbered. I believe similar siftings and purifications will happen - and are even now happening - amongst Messianics.

There is a tendency of every revival or restoration movement to go "so far" and then stand still. YHWH then takes a group of people out of that stagnation and uses them to continue the reviving and restoring. They, in their turn, go "so far" and then YHWH does the same thing again. I have observed this pattern repeat itself time and time again. Why does it happen? I think there are two primary forces at work:

1. The people themselves just don't want to go any further - they reach their individual and corporate theological ceilings. Why? I think, in part, it's laziness. They want to be 'comfortable' again and 'settle';

2. The leaders get ahead of themselves and want to crystallise something out before its time, thus restricting the operation of the Ruach. Often its the desire for a personal little baronial feifdom. And the lazy people. happy not to have to be on the edge of constant change and upward movement, just repeat the error of that first Shavu'ot - they want a modern Moses to be their 'priest', forgetting that YHWH has called all to be priests and prophets.

I see the Messianic movement like a car surging ahead, backfiring, and then spluttering on again. It goes in waves. Some are large, some small. I try to discern the spiritual current and ask myself: where and what is it all leading to? I see signs of the same spanners in the works again and again. Movements frequently get martyr and messiah complexes too - a bit of opposition and they think they're ready for a coronation.

It's tough, especially for westerners, who have little or no clue as to what real persecution is. Without being disrespectful to Americans, we who in Europe, Asia, Africa and elsewhere who have witnessed wars, holocausts, destructions, famines and diseases across the whole nation are amazed when the destruction of a couple of skyscrapers in New York puts people into coma. I realise, of course, that Americans have not tasted war on their home turf since about 1866 so it is a bit of shock. I see ministries reacting as though the inquisition has rerturned because of a few nasty people in cyberspace. These are all signs that we have all been mollycoddled for too long. we don't know what real opposition is like yet.

Not that I am eager to invite it - Yah forbid! I want to live in peace along with the next man and women. But I do think we have a tendency in the West to overrate ourselves, sue MacDonalds for millions when we spill some hot water on ourselves and think we are like the first believers or the Protestants who were tortured and burned at the stake when a few mean-spirited people shout "boo" on the internet.

I have been villified for years but when I think what the Copts of Egypt or the Christians of Darfur are going through, I have to count myself quite blessed. Messianics know little about what true persecution is like but there are plenty of antinomians who do.

One of the greatest casualties of the "Anti-Christian" stance of many Messianics, has been to totally miss out on Who Elohim really is and are. In the zeal to reject everything "Christian" all aspects of the Trinity have been thrown out (including those that are actually backed up by Scripture). I do not believe a true restoration of the Historical Faith of the first century believers will ever happen until the Binitarian, Monotarian, and One-ness Messianics get past their mental blocks regarding the familial structure of the Living Elohim.

Yahweh did not preserve "the church" for one and a half thousand years for nothing and brought forth great and marvelous truths through it. I agree with you absolutely, Yaacov - if we get our Godhead doctrine wrong, we will go wandering down numerous false paths that lead ultimately to a dead-end form of spirituality. There has to be a cross-fertilisation of the revelations of the Church and of Messianic Israel, and I think it is actually happening.

I particularly want people here to feel that they are not going to be shunted off into a doctrinal corner, boxed and labelled. There must be freedom to explore - and make mistakes - while walking in the same fundamental truths.

Would you be interested in joining with me in formulating a 'Statement of Faith' for Messianic Evangelicals that fixes the essentials we are agreed upon (particularly in respect of the Godhead/Elohim)? I know you are busy (as we all are) but I think this would be a worthwhile exercise. What do you think?

sure, we could get started.

Re:"When man chooses to separate himself from Abba YHVH [sic] to start his own "religious movement", he invariably adds his own leaven to accomplish whatever motive he set out with when he separated himself from Abba. Therefore, there is always just enough Truth in these "religious movements" to confuse the masses into following." [emphasis mine]

Where would that place Monotarianism (Oneness-ism), Binitarianism, Mormonism or quasi-Mormonism?

Wouldn't rejecting the Ones that Abba YHWH sent be the next worst thing to separating himself from Abba YHWH?