NCCG.ORG New Covenant Ministries for Mormons - LDS Archive - Articles on LDS History, Doctrine & Practice - 17. HOW THE TRUTH IS REVEALED & LDS CONCEPTS OF FREE AGENCY

The truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit, it is the light of God. That's how our spirit gains a testimony of the truth--but that comes after we believe. I'm not here to prove anything. It's not my job. It is God's job to testify of Himself. I have not posted under a different name, so if you got that from the Holy Spirit, it is definitely not a true spirit.

I'm really into deep principles and trying to understand how the logic fits together in a framework of truth. Mormonism doesn't cut it. It breaks down in the mysteries of the religion. I've explained this clearly about the "pre-earth war", which Mormons assume is based on Moses 4:1-4. How did Satan seek to "destroy" the agency of man? What was his specific proposal? Would you care to explain it to me? When we try to attempt to be specific and understand the principles involved, it all breaks down into mush. There is no meat nor logic behind it. So, did Satan stand up and say, "If you don't obey, I'll force you to?" What was his plan? See,that is all hidden in Mormonism. But what is not hidden is God's plan, which is "eternal progression". But because we can't see Satan's plan, we are not able to contrast the two plans, are we? We only see ONE PLAN in the pre-earth life, don't we? Can't you see. It is DELIBERATE. By only having one plan on the table, Satan can pawn eternal progression off as God's plan, for there is NO CONTRAST. All he says is that Satan sought to destroy the agency of man. Well, what on earth does that really mean? It's all shrouded in secrecy. If Mormonism is true, God would have CLEARLY EXPLAINED Satan's proposal so we could make the clear contrast. Now, I've provided the keys to unlock the mystery, by presening BOTH SIDES of the argument in heaven, and when we do, we suddenly find "eternal progression" on Satan's side of the argument and grace on God's side. Now we have the two spirits in clear view, and we can choose between one or the other. And the debate continues to this day on earth. There is no "destruction of agency" proposed in the two plans--although if we submit to God completely and worship him, we give him control of our life and pride, we kill ourself, and in that sense, our agency becomes one with God's will. And in that sense, a person could view this as the "destruction of our agency". But that is the devil looking at God and REFUSING to yield his choices to God. He sought to save his life and his will and his agency. Can't you see? Satan is the God of Mormonism. It is the devil himself who refused to believe in God, but called him a liar, believing that God was just like him, from the same substance, and that God can not see the future. It is the devil who believes God is not eternal, but an "evolved" being. My goodness, why on earth don't we think the devil is WORKING SO HARD at his plan? He truly believes God is lying and that he has the "Real Truth". Lying doesn't matter to the devil, as long as it justifies the end goal of proving God is a liar. God's a liar, so He can be one too.

Now, my explanation takes eternal principles and states them clearly for all to see and understand both sides of the debate on earth--RIGHT NOW. But the LDS "war in heaven" fails to do this. We only see ONE SIDE of the debate, and it is the devil's light claiming to be God HIMSELF. We can all become gods through eternal progression! Of COURSE the devil believes this--otherwise he would never have challenged God's power and authority.

If we can just step back and look at the concept, then just read the Bible in English, and the times the devil speaks, it becomes very clear who is talking.

Let me finish, L. [an LDS]. I'm into this stuff very, very deep. Now when you have spirits come to you and try to "convince you" and "force" you to believe in Mormonism and "eternal progression" and "salvation by agency"--and they cause your entire being or spirit to BURN WITH FIRE, maybe you could understand me better. Just this week a flood of spirits came to me in a nightime vision. In the past, I would have believed they were true spirits. But now as a Christian, I challenged them in the name of Jesus Christ, and they LEFT!

I've wrestled with the two concepts myself, and I have learned by my own experience that eternal progression is from the devil. Anyone who sacrifices their WHOLE SOUL to the LDS temple will wake up one day surrounded by demons and being fed counterfied light that they think is from God, but IT IS NOT! Oh, they appear harmless and the believer will think he is SO SPIRITUAL-- it will egg him on for more light...and this is fine, until finally they take TOTAL CONTROL, and then START LYING--it is THEN that the believer will find out what I did. They are BIG LIARS, and eternal progression is FALSE.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is a gift from God. Not of works lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9.)

Which to you choose for salavation:

1) God saves us by his unconditional love and grace base on his Word.
Or
2) We are saved by obedience to eternal law.
Or
3) Both: We are saved by grace and resurrected for free, but earn our final reward in heaven by our obedience.

The truth, according to the Bible is option #1. The truth according to Mormonism is option #3, which is a HALF TRUTH. If I argue that Mormons believe they are not saved by grace, they will argue--no, God resurrects everyone because of his great love! And that is TRUE. But it is buried into a BIG LIE. For in the second breath the Mormon says: "BUT....exaltation depends on our faithfulness to law!"

Sorry, L...you are caught in a very bad trap, and I suggest you just table your LDS stuff and read the Bible from cover to cover with an open mind and find the true God of the Bible. It is NOT the Mormon God.

Clair

A Fundamentalist Mormon Replies

I have often wondered the KIND of arguments that Saul, the Pharisee used to discredit and to discount the Message of Yeshua ben Yusuf, Isnazaret, and his disciples. I have this picture in my mind, of this very sincere, and very well-meaning and strict Pharisee, zealous for the Lord and His Cause. I can see him going from synagogue to synagogue, visiting the congregations of the "believers", reasoning out of the Bible how this "new and strange sect of Judaism" that hails this little carpenter from Nazareth as the Messiah. I can nearly hear Saul's booming voice, and his excellent reasoning, showing what Yeshua did as the man he was and what the Bible says that the Messiah was to do. "Sorry, my Messiah-ite friends. Your Messiah is no Messiah at all, but a servant of Beelzebub, out to deceive the Sons of the Covenant, out to cause us to stray from the Divine Law we received in the Testament". "Beware, my friends. Beware that you don't turn your back on the Lord God Yehovah, in going after this deceiver, this malefactor, this blasphemer."

And no doubt, Saul would have continued on in this genre, as I am sure many of his Pharisee brothers did, until the end of their lives... railing on the Christians, not realizing that a "new religion" was emerging that was to cause a literal world revolution, unlike the world had ever seen.... not realizing that they were literally "kicking against" their Messiah, and leading their people away from that which would bring them the Joy of the Gospel and the Joy of Heaven.

I am sure had you or I, in our own genteel and esoteric way, would have sat down with Saul so as to reason with him out of the Scriptures on the Truth of the that little Jewish Carpenter being the Messiah of ALL Israel, we would have fallen flat. He wouldn't have listened to our reasoning, our "facts", or our Logic. Most of the Jews did not listen to the Disciples of Jesus Christ, but rejected the Message of the Gospel, the Gentiles by and large embracing the message of Christianity.

So, what was it going to take? What would the Lord have to do, to Saul to get Saul to believe in Jesus Christ and in the Gospel? It took a Vision. It took the Savior literally coming to Saul to convince Saul that this Jesus was the Messiah of whom the prophets testified. It took a dramatic and traumatic vision that blinded Saul to get to Saul's heart, and cause him to embrace this "weird Jewish sect" and proclaim the Message of Jesus Christ and of the Gospel of Repentance to the World. Nothing else would have done the trick. Nothing else would have sufficed. Saul could have read every verse in the Old Testament and even memorized these verses. He could have read every Gospel and every letter written by the Disciples of Jesus Christ. He could have read every Vision of any of the Savior's Disciples. NONE of that would have convinced Saul.

IT TOOK A VISION OF THE SAVIOR TO CONVINCE SAUL OF THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.

What is it going to take to open the hearts and minds of Greg and Stan, to what the Lord has done and is doing to establish His Kingdom in this, the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times? What is it going to take for them to see what others have seen and KNOWN for themselves, regarding the Restoration of the Gospel? Perhaps, Stan and Clair, are like Saul. I think they are.

Clair's Response to the Fundamentalist Mormon

Have you even read my story? It is as you claim. I believe in revelation and visions, and as I sunk into Mormonism, I came accross visionary light that directed me--until after years of following this light,it started lying to me and I had to back out.

I got the "burning in the bosom" so deeply in Mormonism, that this "burning" went from the top of my head, through my hands and fingers, and down to my toes. And I thought it was the "power of God".

It took total control of me, and I followed like a sheep, until I realized it was a FALSE LIGHT. Then, when I realized I had been spiritually raped by Mormonism and tried the back out, the rapist would not leave me alone. I had to fight for my life, praising the Lord Jesus Christ, calling upon his power to save me.

And He got me out of the Mormom muck with reason and my intellect, as I slowly learned to back away from trusting my feelngs so intensely as the LDS religion teaches.

And now, I present my strong case and truth to the the LDS mind, and do they address the real issues? No. They sidetrack and divert the discussion away from the issues I bring to the table. Look Wayne, you speak of order out of one side of your mouth, that God's priesthood brings this order, then out of the other side you preach LDS apostasy and refuse to be a part of the priesthood. You refuse to accept all the D&C that says only ONE MANY holds the priesthood keys on earth, and that man is HINKLEY, which you do not support with uplifted hands. So, you preach priesthood, but don't follow the principle as established in the D&C. To me, this is a dishonest heart and hypocritical. If I believed in Mormonism, I would got back to the LDS Church and ask that I be reinstated to the priesthood. You are welcome to believe in your two LDS kingdoms, comparing it to the Old Testament Israel, but we both know that such belief does NOT fit the entire D&C. If a prophet has gone astray, there is a procedure to remove him. As a Mormon, we don't have a luxury to choose the "truth" over the "priesthood". The priesthood comes first--to establish order--and you have failed to see that connection as a Latter-day Saint. Your VERY ATTITUDE is what has caused the division in the LDS faith, with over 100 different sects claiming the authority of God. Which LDS faction do I choose? Yours? You are blind, and don't even see it. You attack Christianity because of the 600 denominations, and don't see yourself leaving the priesthood principle that makes the LDS Church one solid organization under Hinkley. Mormonism is NOT one faith of unity and oneness, but is fragmeneted for the same reasons Christianity is--it's made up of human beings. Which Mormon Church do I join? Yours?

Now, I don't say this critically of you, because God has you right where He wants you. But I say this to point out that YOU are operating on the SAME PRINCIPLE that Christians do when choosing which Church to belong to--they are led by their heart. God is in control, and Christians trust that Holy Spirit. And because of human beings being imperfect, the body of Christ is segmented into many different organizations--just like the LDS Church is also segmented.

So here you critisize the Christians and defend Mormonism, and yet, YOUR OWN MODEL of choosing which religion to join fits with the Christians and NOT the Mormons.

It is so bizarre. You defend a religion you are not even a part of!

It's called hypocrisy. If you truly believe the angels laid hands on Joseph Smith and gave him this priesthood, then HINKLEY HAS THOSE KEYS, and you ought to go BACK to the Bishop, confess you DISOBEDIENCE to that priesthood, and sacrifice the truth for the priesthood, and get in line! You can give me all or your phony analogies about Saul and the Bible, but I'm resting on truth, and I'm resting on the fact that TRUTH takes PRECEDENCE over a phony priesthood from bogus angels. However, if I believed for one second that the angels where from God, then the priesthood principle would drive me to the bishop, I would confess my error, and I would leave all of this alone and go back to my happy Mormon life.

By you in your blindness can't even see the true LDS principle YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING. The priesthood order says your visions are bogus because you are not under Hinkley's keys. You KNOW the doctrine in the D&C, and yet, you don't believe it. I'll repeat. You don't believe the D&C is God's Word. You believe in your own truth instead. The D&C is SO CLEAR on the priesthood order you refuse to obey. I'll repeat--if the angels were from God, then Wayne, YOU ARE AN APOSTATE. The Church has branded you as such. Members are warned about you, and you are viewed by the authorities as an enemy of the Church, NOT A FRIEND.

Obviously, I believe the angels were false, so I don't consider you are in apostasy from the truth--but you are following your original commitment to Christ, when you accepted him as your personal Lord and Savior many years ago, and Jesus is honoring that commitment--taking you through hell and back, but you are so deep into the Mormon web you can't see your way out.

Now, you can come back and call me a Saul taking people away from God's Kingdom in the LDS Church, but the truth is I have had visions, dreams, and revelation that tell me just the opposite about Mormonism. And the Holy Spirit I have received tells me to stay in strict harmony with the Bible. The Holy Spirit of the Joseph Smith said the Bible was not as important as Modern prophets. So, again, this Holy Spirit has led me to the basic quarrel between God and Satan, and which all can understand, for the argument continues today between ALL CHRISTIANS, which is the issue of Jesus saving us by his grace and love or by our obedience. The whole issue is over cause and effect. What is the CAUSE of our salvation? This is the debate that was between Satan and God, and God wanted to be glorified and save his creations by love and grace and Satan wanted us to save ourselves through "eternal progression".

No, you are the one caught in a false spirit that will not let you go.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9.)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosover believeth in Him should not perish but have everlsting life." (John 3:16)

Eternal progression? I don't think so. God perfects us BY HIS GRACE, Wayne, not by our works. Yes, we are commanded to be perfect like our Heavenly Father, but the way to perfection is grace and love...grace and love...grace and love... Contrast this to:

"We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved BY OBEDIENCE to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." (Third Article of Faith)

Mormonism is a half-true religion, just like this article of faith written by Joseph Smith that perverts the atonement of Jesus and turns us away from the grace of Jesus Christ to our own obedience.

Love and grace are lost in a mass of convoluted doctrines of false light straight from hell.

This page was created on 5 May 1999

Updated on 10 March 2001