Archive Section II
HOW THE TRUTH IS REVEALED &
LDS CONCEPTS OF FREE AGENCY
by Clare Gregory
is revealed by the Holy Spirit, it is the light
of God. That's how our spirit gains a testimony
of the truth--but that comes after we believe.
I'm not here to prove anything. It's not my
job. It is God's job to testify of Himself.
I have not posted under a different name, so
if you got that from the Holy Spirit, it is
definitely not a true spirit.
A Fundamentalist Mormon Replies
I'm really into deep principles and trying to understand how the logic
fits together in a framework of truth. Mormonism
doesn't cut it. It breaks down in the mysteries
of the religion. I've explained this clearly
about the "pre-earth war", which Mormons assume
is based on Moses 4:1-4. How did Satan seek to
"destroy" the agency of man? What was his specific
proposal? Would you care to explain it to me?
When we try to attempt to be specific and understand
the principles involved, it all breaks down into
mush. There is no meat nor logic behind it. So,
did Satan stand up and say, "If you don't obey,
I'll force you to?" What was his plan? See,that
is all hidden in Mormonism. But what is not
hidden is God's plan, which is "eternal progression".
But because we can't see Satan's plan, we are not
able to contrast the two plans, are we? We only
see ONE PLAN in the pre-earth life, don't we? Can't you
see. It is DELIBERATE. By only having one plan
on the table, Satan can pawn eternal progression
off as God's plan, for there is NO CONTRAST. All
he says is that Satan sought to destroy the agency
of man. Well, what on earth does that really
mean? It's all shrouded in secrecy. If Mormonism
is true, God would have CLEARLY EXPLAINED Satan's
proposal so we could make the clear contrast.
Now, I've provided the keys to unlock the mystery,
by presening BOTH SIDES of the argument in heaven, and
when we do, we suddenly find "eternal progression"
on Satan's side of the argument and grace on
God's side. Now we have the two spirits in clear
view, and we can choose between one or the other.
And the debate continues to this day on earth.
There is no "destruction of agency" proposed in the two
plans--although if we submit to God completely and
worship him, we give him control of our life and
pride, we kill ourself, and in that sense, our
agency becomes one with God's will. And in that
sense, a person could view this as the "destruction
of our agency". But that is the devil looking at
God and REFUSING to yield his choices to God. He sought
to save his life and his will and his agency. Can't
you see? Satan is the God of Mormonism. It is the
devil himself who refused to believe in God, but
called him a liar, believing that God was just
like him, from the same substance, and that God
can not see the future. It is the devil who
believes God is not eternal, but an "evolved"
being. My goodness, why on earth don't we think
the devil is WORKING SO HARD at his plan? He
truly believes God is lying and that he has the
"Real Truth". Lying doesn't matter to the devil, as long as
it justifies the end goal of proving God is a liar.
God's a liar, so He can be one too.
Now, my explanation takes eternal principles and
states them clearly for all to see and understand
both sides of the debate on earth--RIGHT NOW.
But the LDS "war in heaven" fails to do this. We
only see ONE SIDE of the debate, and it is the
devil's light claiming to be God HIMSELF. We
can all become gods through eternal progression!
Of COURSE the devil believes this--otherwise he
would never have challenged God's power and
If we can just step back and look at the
concept, then just read the Bible in English,
and the times the devil speaks, it becomes
very clear who is talking.
Let me finish, L. [an LDS]. I'm into this stuff very,
very deep. Now when you have spirits come to
you and try to "convince you" and "force" you
to believe in Mormonism and "eternal progression"
and "salvation by agency"--and they cause your
entire being or spirit to BURN WITH FIRE, maybe
you could understand me better. Just this week
a flood of spirits came to me in a nightime vision. In the past, I
would have believed they were true spirits. But
now as a Christian, I challenged them in the name
of Jesus Christ, and they LEFT!
I've wrestled with the two concepts myself, and I
have learned by my own experience that eternal
progression is from the devil. Anyone who
sacrifices their WHOLE SOUL to the LDS temple
will wake up one day surrounded by demons and
being fed counterfied light that they think is
from God, but IT IS NOT! Oh, they appear harmless
and the believer will think he is SO SPIRITUAL--
it will egg him on for more light...and this is
fine, until finally they take TOTAL CONTROL, and
then START LYING--it is THEN that the believer
will find out what I did. They are BIG LIARS,
and eternal progression is FALSE.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that
not of yourselves. It is a gift from God. Not
of works lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9.)
Which to you choose for salavation:
The truth, according to the Bible is option #1.
The truth according to Mormonism is option #3,
which is a HALF TRUTH. If I argue that Mormons
believe they are not saved by grace, they
will argue--no, God resurrects everyone because
of his great love! And that is TRUE. But it
is buried into a BIG LIE. For in the second breath
the Mormon says: "BUT....exaltation depends on
our faithfulness to law!"
- 1) God saves us by his unconditional love and grace
base on his Word.
- 2) We are saved by obedience to eternal law.
- 3) Both: We are saved by grace and resurrected
for free, but earn our final reward in heaven
by our obedience.
Sorry, L...you are caught in a very bad trap,
and I suggest you just table your LDS stuff and
read the Bible from cover to cover with an open
mind and find the true God of the Bible. It is
NOT the Mormon God.
I have often wondered the KIND of arguments that Saul, the Pharisee used to discredit and to discount the Message of Yeshua ben Yusuf, Isnazaret, and his disciples. I have this picture in my mind, of this very sincere, and very well-meaning and strict Pharisee, zealous for the Lord and His Cause. I can see him going from synagogue to synagogue, visiting the congregations of the "believers", reasoning out of the Bible how this "new and strange sect of Judaism" that hails this little carpenter from Nazareth as the Messiah. I can nearly hear Saul's booming voice, and his excellent reasoning, showing what Yeshua did as the man he was and what the Bible says that the Messiah was to do. "Sorry, my Messiah-ite friends. Your Messiah is no Messiah at all, but a servant of Beelzebub, out to deceive the Sons of the Covenant, out to cause us to stray from the Divine Law we received in the Testament". "Beware, my friends. Beware that you don't turn your back on the Lord God Yehovah, in going after this deceiver, this malefactor, this blasphemer."
And no doubt, Saul would have continued on in this genre, as I am sure many of his Pharisee brothers did, until the end of their lives... railing on the Christians, not realizing that a "new religion" was emerging that was to cause a literal world revolution, unlike the world had ever seen.... not realizing that they were literally "kicking against" their Messiah, and leading their people away from that which would bring them the Joy of the Gospel and the Joy of Heaven.
I am sure had you or I, in our own genteel and esoteric way, would have sat down with Saul so as to reason with him out of the Scriptures on the Truth of the that little Jewish Carpenter being the Messiah of ALL Israel, we would have fallen flat. He wouldn't have listened to our reasoning, our "facts", or our Logic. Most of the Jews did not listen to the Disciples of Jesus Christ, but rejected the Message of the Gospel, the Gentiles by and large embracing the message of Christianity.
So, what was it going to take? What would the Lord have to do, to Saul to get Saul to believe in Jesus Christ and in the Gospel? It took a Vision. It took the Savior literally coming to Saul to convince Saul that this Jesus was the Messiah of whom the prophets testified. It took a dramatic and traumatic vision that blinded Saul to get to Saul's heart, and cause him to embrace this "weird Jewish sect" and proclaim the Message of Jesus Christ and of the Gospel of Repentance to the World. Nothing else would have done the trick. Nothing else would have sufficed. Saul could have read every verse in the Old Testament and even memorized these verses. He could have read every Gospel and every letter written by the Disciples of Jesus Christ. He could have read every Vision of any of the Savior's Disciples. NONE of that would have convinced Saul.
IT TOOK A VISION OF THE SAVIOR TO CONVINCE SAUL OF THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.
What is it going to take to open the hearts and minds of Greg and Stan, to what the Lord has done and is doing to establish His Kingdom in this, the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times? What is it going to take for them to see what others have seen and KNOWN for themselves, regarding the Restoration of the Gospel? Perhaps, Stan and Clair, are like Saul. I think they are.
Clair's Response to the Fundamentalist Mormon
Have you even read my story? It is as you claim.
I believe in revelation and visions, and as I
sunk into Mormonism, I came accross visionary light
that directed me--until after years of following
this light,it started lying to me and I had to
I got the "burning in the bosom" so deeply
in Mormonism, that this "burning" went from the
top of my head, through my hands and fingers,
and down to my toes. And I thought it was the
"power of God".
It took total control of me, and I followed like
a sheep, until I realized it was a FALSE LIGHT.
Then, when I realized I had been spiritually raped
by Mormonism and tried the back out, the
rapist would not leave me alone. I had to fight
for my life, praising the Lord Jesus Christ,
calling upon his power to save me.
And He got me out of the Mormom muck with reason
and my intellect, as I slowly learned to back
away from trusting my feelngs so intensely as
the LDS religion teaches.
And now, I present my strong case and truth to the
the LDS mind, and do they address the real issues?
No. They sidetrack and divert the discussion away
from the issues I bring to the table. Look Wayne,
you speak of order out of one side of your mouth,
that God's priesthood brings this order, then
out of the other side you preach LDS apostasy and
refuse to be a part of the priesthood. You refuse
to accept all the D&C that says only ONE MANY holds
the priesthood keys on earth, and that man is HINKLEY,
which you do not support with uplifted hands. So,
you preach priesthood, but don't follow the principle
as established in the D&C. To me, this is a dishonest
heart and hypocritical. If I believed in Mormonism,
I would got back to the LDS Church and ask that I
be reinstated to the priesthood. You are welcome
to believe in your two LDS kingdoms, comparing it
to the Old Testament Israel, but we both know that
such belief does NOT fit the entire D&C. If a prophet
has gone astray, there is a procedure to remove him.
As a Mormon, we don't have a luxury to choose the
"truth" over the "priesthood". The priesthood comes
first--to establish order--and you have failed to
see that connection as a Latter-day Saint. Your
VERY ATTITUDE is what has caused the division in
the LDS faith, with over 100 different sects claiming
the authority of God. Which LDS faction do I choose?
Yours? You are blind, and don't even see it. You
attack Christianity because of the 600 denominations,
and don't see yourself leaving the priesthood
principle that makes the LDS Church one solid
organization under Hinkley. Mormonism is NOT one
faith of unity and oneness, but is fragmeneted for
the same reasons Christianity is--it's made up
of human beings. Which Mormon Church do I join? Yours?
Now, I don't say this critically of you, because
God has you right where He wants you. But I say
this to point out that YOU are operating on the
SAME PRINCIPLE that Christians do when choosing
which Church to belong to--they are led by their
heart. God is in control, and Christians trust
that Holy Spirit. And because of human beings
being imperfect, the body of Christ is segmented
into many different organizations--just like the
LDS Church is also segmented.
So here you critisize the Christians and defend
Mormonism, and yet, YOUR OWN MODEL of choosing
which religion to join fits with the Christians
and NOT the Mormons.
It is so bizarre. You defend a religion you
are not even a part of!
It's called hypocrisy. If you truly believe
the angels laid hands on Joseph Smith and gave
him this priesthood, then HINKLEY HAS THOSE KEYS,
and you ought to go BACK to the Bishop, confess
you DISOBEDIENCE to that priesthood, and sacrifice
the truth for the priesthood, and get in line!
You can give me all or your phony analogies about
Saul and the Bible, but I'm resting on truth, and
I'm resting on the fact that TRUTH takes PRECEDENCE
over a phony priesthood from bogus angels. However,
if I believed for one second that the angels where
from God, then the priesthood principle would drive
me to the bishop, I would confess my error, and
I would leave all of this alone and go back to
my happy Mormon life.
By you in your blindness can't even see the true
LDS principle YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING. The priesthood order
says your visions are bogus because you are not
under Hinkley's keys. You KNOW the doctrine in the D&C, and
yet, you don't believe it. I'll repeat. You
don't believe the D&C is God's Word. You believe
in your own truth instead. The D&C is SO CLEAR
on the priesthood order you refuse to obey.
I'll repeat--if the angels were from God, then
Wayne, YOU ARE AN APOSTATE. The Church has branded
you as such. Members are warned about you, and
you are viewed by the authorities as an enemy of
the Church, NOT A FRIEND.
Obviously, I believe the angels were false, so
I don't consider you are in apostasy from the
truth--but you are following your original commitment
to Christ, when you accepted him as your personal
Lord and Savior many years ago, and Jesus is
honoring that commitment--taking you through hell
and back, but you are so deep into the Mormon
web you can't see your way out.
Now, you can come back and call me a Saul taking
people away from God's Kingdom in the LDS Church,
but the truth is I have had visions, dreams, and
revelation that tell me just the opposite about
Mormonism. And the Holy Spirit I have received tells me
to stay in strict harmony with the Bible.
The Holy Spirit of the Joseph Smith said the Bible
was not as important as Modern prophets.
So, again, this Holy Spirit has led me to the
basic quarrel between God and Satan, and which
all can understand, for the argument continues
today between ALL CHRISTIANS, which is the issue
of Jesus saving us by his grace and love or by
our obedience. The whole issue is over cause
and effect. What is the CAUSE of our salvation?
This is the debate that was between Satan and God,
and God wanted to be glorified and save his creations
by love and grace and Satan wanted us to save ourselves
through "eternal progression".
No, you are the one caught in a false
spirit that will not let you go.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and
that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God.
Not of works lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9.)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his
only begotten Son, that whosover believeth in
Him should not perish but have everlsting life." (John 3:16)
Eternal progression? I don't think so. God
perfects us BY HIS GRACE, Wayne, not by our works.
Yes, we are commanded to be perfect like our
Heavenly Father, but the way to perfection is
grace and love...grace and love...grace and love...
Contrast this to:
"We believe that through the atonement of Christ
all mankind may be saved BY OBEDIENCE to the laws
and ordinances of the gospel." (Third Article of Faith)
Mormonism is a half-true religion, just like
this article of faith written by Joseph Smith
that perverts the atonement of Jesus and turns
us away from the grace of Jesus Christ to our
Love and grace are lost in a mass of convoluted
doctrines of false light straight from hell.
This page was created on 5 May 1999
Updated on 10 March 2001
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