Shalom,
I ad an interesting article written by Daniel Botkin about the myth of unconditional love. I believe that the message of the love of God is too often mixed mixed with our human assumptions.
Comment by Deborah Peterson on May 12, 2009 at 9:03am
I think something that we as believers need to consider in seeking to answer the question whether Yah loves everyone is rather "Does Yah love everyone the same?"
As human beings who are made in the image of Elohim we are able to expressed different types, or we can almost say depths of love...
The love we express for a spouse is very different to the love we express in a friendship. There is a type or depth of love that is appropriate in one relationship but which isn't in another ~ for instance, for a wife to 'love' another another man with the kind of love she should love her husband isn't righteousness, but adultery.
I think our ability to "love at different depths" reflects something of the way Yahweh Elohim loves...
Does Elohim love the sinner? Yes, but this love is different from the Love He has for His Bride that has allready been brought and cleansed by Yah'shua's blood.
It is because of His love people completly unworthy and deserving death that He gave His Son...because He wanted to save them.
I think the love the speaker might be thinking of that is "exclusively for the saved" is the kind of love expressed within covenant, like a Husband for a Wife...
Until both man and woman has entered into lifelong covenants, it would be unrightous for that man to love that woman as a wife, but there are other lesser depths of love that is still appropriate.
In the same way, Yah'shua expresses a love for a Bride thats been redeemed and entered into covenant with Him that is much deeper than that for the sinner who had yet to do so.
The depth of His love for those who love Him is different from His love for those who don't love Him, something we are shown in John 14:23:
"Yah'shua replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."
It is only because He loved us first that we can love Him, but when we start to love Him, as expressed through obedience flowing out of trust, this verse points to that He begins loving us in a different or deeper way then the love that was expressed before.
Comment by Lev/Christopher on May 12, 2009 at 1:26am
I think the question we sometimes fail to ask is this one: Can Yahweh simultaneously love us deeply and consistently irrespective of what we do AND, when we sin, be filled with wrath? My answer to that is YES! Haven't you ever been angry with someone you love deeply? Of course! But when i got angry with them, for doing something wicked, it doesn't mean that I have stopped loving them. Behind the anger or wrath is a heart waiting to forgive and embrace. In our finiteness we tend to assume that wrath and love are somehow incompatible, but are they? It depends what kind of wrath is being spoken of, for do any of us disagree that there is righteous anger and unrighteous anger?
Mal 1:2-3
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
NKJV
This scripture was used by both commentators BUT it is NOT a reference to the man Esau or to the man Jacob - if you read the context Yahweh is saying is that He hates the fruits of what the descendants of these two men have done. This is Malachi writing - there are two nations being spoken of. If you read on you will see that this is a correct understanding:
Mal 1:3-4
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness."
4 Even though ***Edom*** has said,
"We have been impoverished,
But we will return and build the desolate places,"
NKJV
Edom is the nation of Esau - YAHWEH IS CLEARLY SPEAKING OF THE NATIONS.
I think this serves as a warning (1) not to get sucked into the charisma of a speaker (his spirit) without being sure he is fillled with the true Ruach (and it is not his psyche we are listening to), and (2) to be diligent scriptorians on the look out for sloppy exegeses.
Thank you for sharing these videos - they were wake-up calls.
Comment by Mats Rydin on May 11, 2009 at 10:27pm
Shalom,
Yes, I think You are all right. Yahweh is merciful and love. What I want is to penetrate and question is the evangelical formula that says "God hate the sin but love the sinner." Where does that come from? I believe that the wrath of God isn´t something opposite the love of God. I´v been thinking of this very much beacause we neglect this side of Yahweh too often. Yahweh is holy and we are fallen and a creation that only deserves to cast in to the lake of fire. How can You distinguish You fromYour sin? When a true repentence occures
isnt´t the sinner trembling for an holy and wrathful God. That´s was my experience when I met Yah´shua. I´m sorry that I´v been raised in a domination that never talked about sin, hell and a God who is full both of wrath and love.
Rom 1:18 "For the wrath of Eloah is revealed from heaven upon all the iniquity and the ungodliness of men, those who hold the truth in iniquity,"
Rom 2::5 "But because of the hardness of your heart does not repent, you lay up for yourself a treasure of wrath for the day of wrath, and for the revelation of the righteous judgment of eloh,
Rom 5:9 "then how much more exceedingly will we be justified now by his blood and be saved by him from wrath?"
Rom 9:22"Now, if Eloah wanted to display his wrath and to make known his power, he would have brought, in the abundance of his longsuffering, wrath upon the vessels of wrath that were made to destruction"
Eph.5:6 ...lest anyone should decieve you wit empty words. For ecause of these, the wrath of Eloah will come upon the sons of disobidience"
We can´t figure out how much Yahweh loves us in Yah´shua if we not have understand the wrath of Him that cost Him His son. His wrath still abides over those who do not repent and come to Him. but ´that doesn´t say that he doesn´t love them. We as humans being are very limited to fully comprehense the nature of Yahweh. but what I would like point out that He is not a gloomy teddybear.
Comment by Lev/Christopher on May 11, 2009 at 12:59pm
P.S. I believe Yahweh loves everyone but that that love can only be experienced and appropriated by being IN Yah'shua.
Comment by Lev/Christopher on May 11, 2009 at 12:57pm
Phew. You have dug up a couple of very challenging talks, Mats. I am still trying to digest this one. I see what the young man is saying but something doesn't quite 'gel'. I am wondering if he might have a different interpretation if he knew his Hebrew better. Take for instance this passage:
Luke 14:26
6 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple
NKJV
We all know that the "hating" here is comparative only - Yah'shua is saying that we should love Him to much more than anyone or anything else that our love for our nearest and dearest will seem like hate.
Does Yahweh "hate" Esau? Yes, of course, in a relative sense because His love of faithful Jacob is so much greater. Yet His nature does not contain hate:
1 John 4:8
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
NKJV
1 John 4:16
od is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
NKJV
Does scripture anywhere say that Yahweh is hate? His whole nature is love.
Matt 5:44-45
4 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven
NKJV
Now a question of my own: does Yahweh expect a higher standard of love from us than He does of Himself? Can He hate those who do not trust in Yah'shua while we are expected to love our enemies?
I think of Jehovah's Witnesses who take the "hating" passages literally and we know what kind of "love" is in them.
I'm sorry, I have to say that I do not agree with this young man or his interpretation of Scripture.
