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    The YATI Whole Wheat (WW) Doctrine Examined

    Posted by Lev/Christopher on October 1, 2008 at 2:59am
    in Questions & Answers

    I have created this thread for a discussion of YATI's "Whole Wheat" doctrine which you can learn about by reading Moshe Koniuchowsky's book called Our Last days Meal: The Full Truth of Yahshua Our Whole Wheat Unleavened Bread. You can read some of the chapters at the Nazarene Israelite True Name Network - the thread I had up there has been deleted. The chapters available on their group can be accessed here:

    http://nazareneisraelitetruenamenetwork.ning.com/notes/Whole_Wheat_...

    http://nazareneisraelitetruenamenetwork.ning.com/notes/Whole_Wheat_...

    http://nazareneisraelitetruenamenetwork.ning.com/notes/Whole_Wheat_...

    http://nazareneisraelitetruenamenetwork.ning.com/notes/Whole_Wheat_...

    http://nazareneisraelitetruenamenetwork.ning.com/notes/Whole_Wheat_...

    http://nazareneisraelitetruenamenetwork.ning.com/notes/Whole_Wheat_...

    for those of you who don't have the book or don't want to spend money buying it.

    Before we get into any discussion I want to firstly state our criteria for debate:

    1. That only the Protestant Canon of the Bible is used as an authority (this means we do not accept arguments from the Book of Jasher/Yasher, the Book of Enoch, the Sepher Yetsirah, the Talmud, Mishnah's, Kaballah, or Jewish tradition and mysticism;

    2. Recognised linguistic scholarship.

    In a nutshell, the Whole Wheat (ahereafter abbreviated as 'WW') doctrine teaches that "Yah'shua (Jesus) did not share the flesh or blood, or humanity of Adam and that He was fully separate from the sons of men." (from the back cover from the book). The author continues: "See how His flesh, blood and spirit were all provided by YHWH before the foundation of the world. Only in this understanding of Yahshua as our WHOLE WHEAT UNLEAVENED BREAD do we see Yahshua in all His true eternal majesty, removed from all pagan and religious perversions of the living bread, that has sadly been processed into white bread, processed by religion and totally void of spiritual nutrition".

    This ministry does not accept the WW doctrine which has virtually become a test of faith for members of YATI and is now YATI dogma. We believe that Yah'shua the Messiah was fully man (Adamic flesh) and fully Elohim (God), and not some wetsuit (Yah'shua's alleged unique non-human body) in a testtube (Mary/Mirian). My own personal refinement of this doctrine is essentially Nestorianism inasmuch as I believe that Yah'shua was 100% man in His physical body and flesh and 100% Elohim in His ruach/spirit.

    I am including some of my own posts here from the YATI group to initiate a discussion.

    My object in opening this discussion is not to attack YATI and its author (and I will not tolerate any personal attacks on him here or any sort of lashon hara - please do not join this group if your sole interest is in personally attacking the author) but to seek out the truth. We will only be looking at the merits and demerits of the doctrine. As a doctrinal proposition it is worthy of honest investigation. My own tentative conclusion (for I am willing to be corrected if found to be wrong) is that this doctrine so isolates Yah'shua from the human condition and its trials and temptations and makes Yah'shua so 'other-wordly' as to make Him virtually non-human at all. That has serious repercussions not only for the Atonement but also for our personal relationship with Him as our brother.

    May YHWH bless and guide this discussion.


    My reply:

    Simon - it is only mathematically impossible if you think in the Greek linear way - consider de Bonoian lateral thinking too. Does anyone doubt that while Yah'shua was incarnated on earth that He was also in heaven (i.e. being in more the one place simultaneously ... I am not talking momotarianism here)? And does the concept of echad find a resonant chord in Western mathematics? Are not our mathematical models in any case based on certain pre-supposed and unprovable axioms? What may be impossible for man is conceivably possible for YHWH.

    When Yah'shua says He comes from above, what assumptions do we make in interpreting that? Does He even expect us to associate 'flesh' with that at all? When He speaks of coming from above, to me that means His essential nature is heavenly. That does not necessarily include any physical incarnation. And at this stage we haven't even addressed what is meant by the WW proponents of His 'heavenly body' nor have we looked into theomorphism or the wider ranging implications of the WW hypothesis - what do we even mean by 'spirit' and 'body'? Where does matter end and spirit begin? What about the alleged other type of 'spirit' (neshamah vs. ruach). Add nephesh into the pot and it can get quite complex. How many of these designations are scientifically literal, how many literary and metaphorical? With what thought system to we approach these questions - modern Jewish thought (which, like Western thought in general, has been heavenly influenced by Gnostic and Neoplatonist concepts), ancient Hebrew thought, or what? This WW topic is HUUUUGE because it embraces 'everything' dealing as it does with the very nature and composition of Elohim.

    I don't expect a quick resolution to this and wouldn't want to force anyone to either. It's too serious theologically. And since it's been debated for two millennia we perhaps should not feel obliged to rush it. I admit my Nestorianism is just (for the present) a 'best fit' doctrine - and my BIGGEST concern, which overrides everything, is to understand what exactly it means when Yah'shua is portrayed both as Elohim and as our brother (implying literal filiality as well as spiritual) - I want to understand HOW He was tempted in every point as we are, how He too learned to be a son through obedience, and how He is able to intimately identify with my infirmities. My heart connection to Him is deeply related to this doctrine ... and millions of other believers too.

    So I am looking forward to a deep debate on the core of our faith .... and as I said, I am in no hurry....

    The author's (RM's) reply:

    Lev you said

    I want to understand HOW He was tempted in every point as we are, how He too learned to be a son through obedience, and how He is able to intimately identify with my infirmities. My heart connection to Him is deeply related to this doctrine ... and millions of other believers too.

    Answer tempted not as in tempted; but IN ALL AVENUES meaning s.a.tan used the same AVENUES as he does with us. That does not mean Yahshua found it enticing. Rather he politely told him to kiss His as_, when he said get BEHIND ME s.a.tan

    My reply:

    I cannot believe, as I read of how Yah'shua faced the critical decision of whether to proceed to Calvary or not as He wrestled in the Garden of Gethsemane, that He "politely declined" the invitation to pack His bags and leave. There is deep passion and agony in the struggle such as Abraham had when asked to offer his son Isaac up in sacrifice. We do not, IMO, see Elohim at the forefront here but Yah'shua the man, in such agony as only mortal man can know, making the decision to lay down His life for His friends. And that is precisely why, as I intimated to Simon, Abraham was asked to do do what YHWH asked Him ... so that we would KNOW, in advance, of the same kind of gargantuan struggle Yah'shua would have to go through as the very human Abraham did.

    The author's (RM's) reply:

    no. He was tested even with tears and agony but that doesn't mean that a body prepared for Him from heaven couldn't cry and agonize. That was not a human or divine side but a glimpse into the HEART of YHWH. Tested does not necessarily equate tempted. His being was tested, but had no desire to disobey.

    Mac's reply:

    Since this is new to me, there is a burden for compelling the abandonment of the existing model. As understood the existing model is Spirit & Soul of Yhwh ( the soul is in the blood,) it is the blood that makes atonement for the Soul seems to meet the suggested criteria for changing the parthogenesis model. It seems to me the very compelling aspects of lineage that are preserved by having what according to most is the prophesied "seed of a woman" brring the light of Messiah into the world. Against the loss of so many compelling prophetic aspects of Ben Yosef, Ben Dovid and Messiah Yhwh coming together in 1 form demand a nearly impossible standard of merit to postulate a "non Yisraelite" Basar that elevates nefesh to neshama and by covenant opens the door for all "who will" to enter into this ascended kehillat boggles the mind. So, yeah until my copy gets here I'm listening tell us more this is a very big deal, Lev is right we all want to be on the same page.

    Simon's reply:

    No this is not greek logic but very middle-eastern wham bham logic.

    I was raised in a patriarchal culture and so is every muslim who makes this objection and the objection is valid to which most christian or torah type answers of 100% man and 100% Elohim are simply not true and contradictory. You go aganst scripture when you say that.
    Can you show me one scripture to that affect? I can show you dozens the other way.

    When Yahushua said He is from above He meant just that literally. He only identified with ourselves but not with our sin and our nature. Hence His body could not sin because it was prepared in heaven and not on earth Ps 40:6.

    No matter how convoluted we get the only way you are going to get over the contradictions is to accept He is 100% from above and clothed in heavenly manna not eartlhy substance. He looked like a man, acted like a man, behaved like a man but was from above and Elohim and there is no contradiction in this.

    The other side is that he is simply human and thus an abomination to be offered as a sacrifice. You would have to show me one example where a blemished lamb was allowed in the sacrifce ritual.

    Even if we go underneath the bonnet in the Hebrew and break it apart all it shows us that Elohim is revealed in masculine as a man and nothing more.


    Not to worry. Many have had to live with the contradictions and WW doctrine is a revelation not theory.

    Shalom

    The author's (RM's) reply: (highighting my own)

    Well put Rabbi Simon. It cannot be reasoned, which is why in my view this thread is worthless. Yahshua also could not convince the leaders that ALL of Him was from above, which is why they freaked out when someone they saw as a MAN, asked them to eat alleged human flesh. They simply could not grasp, that the dust of the earth had no claim in or upon Him. Very well put.

    Sam's reply: (my emphasis added)

    When Yahshua said to Kepha "whom do you say that I am" His reply was you are Messiah the Son of the living Elohim (Not Mary and Elohim) Yahshua then went on to say blessed are you Shimon Kepha for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Abba in HaShmayim. and this is exactly how it is unless Abba Yahweh reveals His Nature/Flesh and Blood as the Body/Bone of the Heavens we are but wasting our breath trying to pursuade or convince these people what the scriptures clearly say and teach concerning Yahshua being the whole wheat unleavened bread.

    [....]

    For those who say they don't need a book or any Rabbi to get the revelation then they just shot themselves in the foot as unless they are willing to learn with a humble ruach and submit to the will of Yahweh He will just pass them by and give His truth to those who willingly seek him with a humble heart.

    My reply:

    I disagree. There are lots of things that can be reasoned, and should be reasoned. If the doctrine is true, then it must harmonise with everything else YHWH has revealed, and should be properly tested over time (how old is it? 1-2 years?), otherwise YHWH wouldn't invite us to reason (Is.1:18) and search like good Bereans (I note that they were commended, not told that Sha'ul's message was beyond reason and they should instead search for a revelation). And I am sorry, but those of us who have been in religious institutions where revelation is claimed or demanded and have either discouraged or forbidden reason have learned not to trust the ex cathedra statements of any men. I have no respect for that. And the one I was briefly in precisely told me - don't try to reason it out, it's too big, but seek a revelation. And millions have - only it was from the wrong source.

    There are at least two things that have been said in the last three posts which I find very unreasonable.

    (1) Firstly Ps.40:6 which Simon cited:

    Ps 40:6
    6 Sacrifice ('slaughtering' - ISRV) and ['meal' - ISRV] offering You did not desire;
    My ears You have opened;
    Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
    NKJV

    I don't see how this passage can be remotely connected to the WW doctrine. It has nothing to do with human sacrifice whatsoever but the prescribed Levitical ones. This has nothing to do with YHWH not wanting these (obviously) but contextually it has to do with a specific situation, namely, David's coronation, as is born out in vv.7-8, as this scroll is undoubtedly the King's personal copy of the Torah which is received at the enthronement to serve as the covenant charter of his administration. The context is David's personal committment to YHWH's will as Sovereign which required no sacrificial offering - the important think was, as we are told in v.7, that the Torah was in his heart. The text then goes on to describe David's heart condition. I see no evidence that this is a messianic passage.

    (2) Secondly, I don't see that it would make any difference at all whether Yah'shua's being was 100% heavenly or not in the matter of His challenge that His talmidim/disciples were expected to eat his body. If they had accepted that His body was heavenly as WW teaches, they still would have been revolted by the idea that his body had to be eaten - it after all bled like anyone else's. Unless you are advancing some sort of neo-Catholic Messianic Transsubstantiation doctrine and are saying we need to actually and literally eat the Messiah to have eternal life, then it is obvious - along with other Johannine statements such as His instance that the dead bury the dead - that we are talking metaphor here: He is simply saying that we need to be fully identified with Him by dying to self and allowing Him to be full Master of our beings. So they would have been "freaked out" no matter what He has claimed of Himself because the truth was deliberately hidden from them.

    When someone says that a reasoned discussion is worthless it sends a very clear signal to me that what is being taught is as inaccessible and mysterious as Trinitarianism and well on the way towards becoming an inscrutible dogma accessible only by claimed personal revelation. I don't buy that. The only revelation we absolutely do require is that we personally meet the resurrected Yah'shua and experience the transformation of our being. And that is a "wham bham (sic)" all of its own that is incontestible because of the supernaturally changed life that it brings.

    So if this thread is truly worthless then let's not bother anymore but rather, as Mac suggested, have a proper discussion in a neutral setting where it can be objectively examined. I should be happy to offer my group for that purpose.

    The author's (MK's) reply:

    Lev, the Psalm 40:6 you quote is Masoretic and doctored. The actual Hebrew from which the LXX was taken reads "a body you have prepared for me." Also I did not invent this at all its been around for 2 thousand years and actually was taught to me by another pastor. As for trusting revelation alone I concur. Revelation like this must be word based and then others can "pray for revelation" but not before it can be studied from the word alone. No one is asking anyone to blindly believe another person apart from the Word. Shalom

    Simon's reply:

    Lev,

    Some things cannot be reasoned with. So now you are telling me that you will reaason with a virgin having a child? It is all about faith not reason. And stop reading the king jimmy bible. Get the one that has the correct verses.

    Shalom brother

    Simon

    Mac's reply:

    Well since you asked, yes parthogenesis is a biological fact albiet almost absent in Mammals. So of course reason has room with a virgin birth, especially given the scriptural near necessity of it. Yhwh certainly could have used this aspect of His extant creative abilities to accomplish the same thing done by this WW revelation. While we're on the subject of revelation, hindsight tells us that revelations are not always transmitted with the most accurate language and terms available. Personally, revelatory information requires MUCH vetting and processing before it can be accurately communicated, unless Yhwh uses my tongue directly. For example let's say the ecstatic revelation was a correction to the 200% bumper sticker theology. Now on the face of this if we try and shoe horn a wooden literal interpretation into the statement it is ridiculous on it's face (the 200% theory). However, if it merely an approximate metaphor for the union of a 100% parthogenic birth and an undefiled ( seed of woman) soul NOT in the cursed blood of men and Ruach HaKodesh then it is understood well I think.

    The only distinction between this and the WW revelation then is the implantation of " a divine zygote" as opposed to the parthogenetic model. What I have held for a number of years and if it must be said by similar revelatory cognition, is the convergence of fact for the sake of the most accurate terminology that resolves the breach between the houses*. The fact that science, some fundamentalist evangelical, Braham ( they take their name from Abraham) traditions ( akashic layer theory). Even LTT traditions passed through Zoraster and some Greeks ( the aether), received traditions through the revelations of the Ari and others all converge on the essence of man as being opposite in nature to Yhwh. That is in the neutral language of quantum mechanics, the entire universe is comprised of sparks patterned in a vast and ordely mosiac we call "electromagnetic" phenomena. The recent attempt to recover the Higgs Boson or "god" particle was predicted to be a failure by the wisdom traditions because this is the limit to our vessels of perception. Since time is a peculiar feature of our "universe" there is never a static moment where anything "is". That which truly "is" ( not to sound like Billary Clinton) is outside of our unique and non-linear matrix of time perception. That is the realm of He who was, who is and is to come. He sees past present and future as one. We by comparison are an illusion who's only true reality is in our adhesion to Yhwh. We have not even found a single self extant particle for our "material universe". The whole thing is better understood as a Hologram. In light of these facts, the "flesh" of man is no barrier that need be overcome because it in fact is a temporal illusion.

    The mastery of which is demonstrated by Y'shua passing through seemingly solid walls. But we know that this "matter" is composed of almost entirely empty space, defined for our benefit as a wall by the tapestry of "sparks" that perform the electromagnetic spectacle of forming these "objects". To be in harmony with Yhwh is to ascend above the dominion of the illusory matter in opposition to Yhwh. So then, what is the flesh where the pure Spirit of Yhwh abides? Where he has made His abode with the soul, in the very beating heart of the creature, coursing through the reins? This is the victory, as such I can't fathom the need for more "matter" zygote, or what have you, since the creation itself is devoid of any objective definition as to an absolute particle or "piece" of matter beyond the Word, or organizing will of Y'shua as Creator Himself.

    What is it that requires anything more than Ruach HaKodesh covering a virgin and the desired conception via parthogenesis? It is well known the Orthodox objection to the habitation of the flesh of man. But among then the very best of them promote the notion of adhesion via the ladder of messiah or similar concepts to be as

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