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    unusual belief system

    Posted by Yaacov on December 24, 2008 at 6:43am
    in Forum

    After having seen all the possible mutations of the different beliefs about the Elohim-head, I came across the following entries on another network.

    "No one knows the Father's name, this is what Yehoshva said, but we all know YHWH name. When the Word of Elohim spoke creation sprang forth when the word of Elohim spoke to Moses he obeyed, when the Word of Elohim spoke to the Prophets they proclaimed. And the word was made flesh. YHWH was his name before he became flesh now his name is Yehoshva, they are one and the same. But only He knows the Father"s name. YHWH was not the Father he is the Word of Elohim the Father, bless you for asking

    Thomas Cossette
    ,"

    My reply:
    In Shemoth/Exodus 33:18-23 you have Abba YHWH appearing without showing his face to Moshe (If YHWH would have shown His face, Moshe would have died.
    In Shophtim/Judges 13:3-20 you have Yahushua appearing to Shimson's parents. Shimson's dad thought that he was doomed to die because he thought he may have seen Abba YHWH face to face, but he didn't die because he had actually seen Yahushua.

    So that contradicts your theory.

    Now while Yahushua's second name may occasionally be YHWH, as in the Malach of YHWH, or the Master YHWH, that is His less frequently used name, whereas the Abba's Name is predominantly YHWH.

    Thomas, from your comments I cannot tell, do you understand Yahushua to be a distinct Being from His Abba or not?

    "Yea I do believe both YHWH and YEHOSHVA are exactly one and the same. Yehoshva is YHWH come in flesh. YHWH is not the Abba Yehoshva talks about. He said no one know Abba's name but him. and we All know the name YHWH. So the Father that is distinct is not the Word that spoke creation into existence he had YHWH do that then he took on flesh for himself in the person of Yehoshva. I just think you may be confused thinking YHWH is the Father the Abba Yehoshva speaks of he is not. The Word spoke to Moses in Exodus 33:18-23and the Word was YHWH and now it has taken on humanity in the person of Yehoshva
    Again one has seen the Father except the Son no one, not Moses, not me, not you, not Isaiah, not Ezekiel, NO One but YHWH has seen the Father he saw him because he is of Him and YHWH's name is now Yehoshva ever since he came in flesh. You will learn this some day as all will.

    Shalom
    THomas Cossette
    "

    Now, this belief system of his caught me off guard. Is there a flaw to it?


    I wrote a long answer to you and then lost the post - grrr - so this is just a short summary.

    Where does anyone in Scripture say that the Name of the Father is not known, except by Yah'shua (or anybody else). Nowhere. I am sure Cossette has this passage in mind, though:

    Matt 11:27-28
    27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
    NKJV

    The parallel in Luke 10:22 is interesting in this instance because of its variants in Aramaic, such as:

    "...no one knows a son except a father, and no one knows a father except a son. and to whoever a son wants to reveal". (HRV)

    If you've got the HRV, take a look at footnotes #957 & #958.

    It's pretty obvious that Yah'shua is the full revelation of Yahweh, including His Name. The scriptures are simply overwhelmingly in support of this thesis. A name is also a person's character, we we know Yahweh's character through His Son. Yah'shua revealed who the Father was to His disciples and He reveals the Father through the Ruach haQodesh. Those who know the Son know the Father.

    So frabkly I don't know what Cossette is talking about.

    I discovered today that Cossette is an Ebionite (anti-Paul):

    http://yehoshvabeitmidrash.com/Paul.aspx

    Yaccov I have been trying to understand the original Christian and Jewish beliefs on the nature of God and His only begotten Yahushua for the past few years. I know that the Jews did not have a trinity. The only place it is mentioned is the scriptures is in Matthew 28:19. A few years back I was investigating the Orthodox Church, which is in the image of the Catholic Church. I was reading in John where Yahushua commanded that we pray to the father – Abba – in his name stating that what so ever we asked the father in His name, it would be given. The catholic and Orthodox do not pray in the name of Jesus or Yeshua or Yahushua, but occasionally pray in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I asked the priest why they do not pray in the name of Jesus and he replied, “We do – the titles Father, Son and Holy Ghost is his name. Paul and Peter commanded to baptize in the name of Jesus and Jesus commanded to teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are the same being and are just incarnation of each other.”
    I remembered that Christ said in John that the Father was greater than Him. I remembered in Mathew 24 that Christ said that the angels of heaven and himself did not know the day of his return, only the father. I also recalled when someone called Yahushua good – and he reply something like, “Why cal me good? There is none good save God.” I rember God glorifying Yahushua by calling Him -His Son when he was baptized, on the mount of transfigurization, and during the triumphal entery as King into Jerusalem. I thought of what Yahushua said before he gave up the ghost, my God, My God why have you forsaken me? Then after he ascended from hell being resurrected by the Father, he told Mary not to touch Him because he had not yet assended to the Father. I was confused, so I started an investigation that went beyond the encyclopedias, even though they are a start.
    I learned from the writings of Eusebius, in over 17 places through out his commentaries the original passage of Matthew 28:19 read something like this in English:
    “Go you into all the world, converting all nations in my name.”
    I tried to find the original document that Matthew 28:19 came from – that page is missing.
    I learned oddly enough from the catholic encyclopedia and other sources that the original Christians did baptize and pray in the name of (Jesus) Yahushua.
    I found out that the sun god worshipers cleansed and prayed in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit, due to the many names of the father, his incarnates and the names for the queen of heaven in the world at the time.
    I discovered that the pre paganized Christian church had a council on the nature of God before the sun god worshiping Constintine had the big one. This is the council of 298. You need to study this one. Its determinations were turned over by Constantine at Nicaea.
    You also need to study the writings of Origen:

    For information on Origen refer to Dr. Crombie's Life of Origen. Origen was a one of the greatest Christian teachers prior to the great apostasy from or delusion created in Christianity. He was called by the original Bishoprics of the Church of God in Africa, Asia, and Europe and instructed to put together the original library (Bible) of Christian Gospels, Epistles, Histories, practices and other writings, that eventually contained over 800 volumes. Today’s Bible is only a fraction of the size of the original (64). Origen was born about the year 183 AD. He was a great teacher and student of Christian scripture, history and math, writing over 800 commentaries on the original Jewish and Christian scriptures. He was not only aided by the original bishoprics in creating the original Bible, but also instructed the original bishoprics of Africa, Greece, Asia and Europe. His father suffered martyrdom being murdered in the year 202 for his Christian beliefs, and Origen succeeded the great Clement as head of the school at Alexandria. Thirteen years after, persecution drove him from his own country to Caesarea, where he taught without pay, as the tradition was at the time at church meetings. He later returned to Alexandria, and wrote and taught until 231 when he returned to Caesarea due to persecution. At Caesarea he formed a school of Christian training similar to the one at the library at Alexandria, for the Church of God leaders. He taught and traveled in several parts of the world. His death was inflicted on him by the Christian persecutions at the time, sometime around the year 255.

    A good start:
    Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John

    Book II : (Explains the nature of God as taught by original Christians)
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/origen-john2.html

    Origen Chapter 10 on prayer: (Explains How and who and who not to pray to)
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/origen/prayer.xi.html

    I think there is a gremlin in this thread - every time I make a large post it crashes and it is lost (I think it's the latest bug-ridden MS IE). So this is my second attempt at responding to you (Arius)!

    As your (Arius) questions are directed to Yaacov I will leave him to answer some of your points and focus on Origin whom you regard highly. (Some of them are quickly resolved by taking a look at Hebrew or Aramaic versions of the NT).

    Brilliant though Origen was, his entire theological system was not purely Hebraic but incorporated, by his own admission (and clearly evidenced by his teachings and exegeses), Greek pagan philosophy: it is well known that he was a Platonist and a Pythagorean with strong influence from Stoicism. Given his Hellenistic education, which formed the groundwork of his thinking, it is hardly surprising that he came under the influence of such a mindset upon which his Christian theology was superimposed. That his belief system was tainted by paganism is no more obvious in his doctrine of reincarnation (which Paul summarily dismisses) and belief in the final salvation of satan and demons (to name but two). We do agree with him in his belief in the pre-existence of souls and in the subordination of Yah'shua to the Father but absolutely do not believe He was, or is, a 'secondary god' as the Arian Jehovah's Witnesses teach or (worse) that He is not deity at all. We believe that He was, and is, 100% Elohim. For further studies on this, see Yaacov's Patriarchinity and the ministry's section on the Godhead.

    As to whom we should pray to, I take Yah'shua's lead on that. In His model prayer (for us to imitate) He prayed to Yahweh the Father, like all the prophets and sages of Israel did before Him.

    Arius,
    I'm not entirely sure how to respond, as I wasn't sure of what was your final conclusion on the matter.
    Although it seems the trendy thing in Mesianicism nowadays is to avoid or even deny the plurality of the Elohim, the original Natzarim/Nazarene believers from the onset did in fact believe in some sort of plurality of Powers/Beings.


    the Powers
    The Ministry of the Ruach HaQodesh
    Authentic Netzarim
    Gospel according to the Hebews

    personally, I'm not yet convinced about the pre-existance of souls for humans. but that's another thread.

    It’s kind of funny to think that the only place that we have any fragments of the gospel of the Hebrews if from the commentaries of Origen which are few and messed with. The Greek version does not have anything about reincarnation and the Roman’s or Latin versions have all kinds of things added to them. I hope that someone discovers the entire original set of commentaries, gospels, histories, epistles etc... prior to the Roman destruction of them. If you read the commentary of Origen on prayer you'll see that he says he was a pagan sun worshiper who converted to Christianity, and what praying methods he left behind - and how he learned to pray as a Christian. The trouble is, is that over a billion Christians now pray as the former pagan Origen did and not as the converted and anointed head Christian teacher Origen.
    My conclusions are the same as the conclusions found at the Church of God council of 298, when queen Zenobia and her sun-god-paganized Bishop Paul of Samosata were trying to change the nature of God to that resembling the sun god trinities accepted in the kingdom of Palmyra (Persia) and Roman empires of the time; as well as the same conclusions as that of Origen's teaching in the
    Commentary on the Gospel of John:
    Book II : (Explains the nature of God as taught by original Christians)
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/origen-john2.html
    Origen Chapter 10 on prayer: (Explains How and who and who not to pray to)
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/origen/prayer.xi.html
    I don’t know I could be wrong, I usually am. Whenever I try to be right, the more wrong I seem to be in that I police myself from the truth in order to be accepted and be in line with what the group accepts as being right - I just notice that I cannot see the truth when I’m trying to be right – I am trapped and not free. I want to stand with God and His Son in truth and the world be dammed if they will not accept me if I don’t group think with them and police myself to follow the accepted and expected right way. I take what I am given, investigate it from the beginning and cut out the corruption and keep the gem. I know that Origen was a hero and champion of the gospel of Christ until Constantine added his pagan practices and teachings and then he was a Heretic. Many people then tried to make the teaching and conclusions of Constantine’s church right, Christian and as if they have been form the beginning. I don’t want to spell it all out, I wanted you do discover and see, to experience it and build on it. I wouldn’t just accept it at face value if you gave it to me and from what I see many of you are like me and have to find the truth yourself and experience it yourself, before you see and accept any truth. I don’t want to build my faith on anything but truth.

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